Panther Ausf. G Lunchtime project

[cobra6]

Work about two weeks now. Still working on the hull details :)
This is rendered with Nurms 2 itterations. Working "lowpoly" without nurms ofcourse :)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther.jpg

Cobra 6

[digiartist]

Great start Cobra! I really like the weld lines. One thing though, should the hull mounted Mg34 housing come to a point in the centre like you have? I may well be wrong but I thought it was pretty rounded all the way over.
At any rate, looks fantastic so far!:)

[cobra6]

nah thats an error =/ had a fun time modelling the part going in :D Still perfecting the housing, also the overall shape of it.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Fantastic start mate! I agree with Gareth regarding the glacis MG mount though.

Are your weld seams modelled? They look great:)

[Karras]

Pretty work Cobra. The welds Lines are renderizable spilines I suppose or not. :rolleyes:

[cobra6]

Nope bumpmap ^_^ About the only map there is about now haha, at least for now, I still have to decide about the final, also if I should model zimmerit or not...

Cobra 6

[Martocticvs]

Nice clean start! I only wish I were able to work on stuff during my lunch breaks... don't even have internet access at work though!

[rodrigomierh]

looking good. nice clean mesh you got there.

[Hitori Kyo]

great start, cant wait to see more.

- Hitori kyo

[kevjon]

Cobra, your becoming a modelling master, excellent detail.

[cobra6]

hehe thanks all :)

Small update, problem is my inet at home is closed for 5 days so I'm uploading it here at work :)

(@ Digiartist: fixed the gunbubble ;) )

Cobra 6

[digiartist]

Thats looking great Cobra. Lovely attention to detail. Are you going to add flame suppressors to the exhausts? I see you have some bolt on shrouds just now, was thinking with the supressors you could do some really nice night time renders rigged up with IR equipment.
Anyway, beautiful job so far :)

[cobra6]

I dont know yet, maybe combine them with normal "G"'s in a render. So many different versions hahah. Going to model one with sideplates also I think, and Im still thinking about Zimmerit.

Had some trouble with modelling, unwantely moved some vertices on the other side when modelling, hate when that happens =/

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

I'd vote against zimmerit personally, seeing as it was all but outlawed in mid to late '44 - with this level of detail you really don't need it in my opinion anyway.

Can't wait to see more!

[cobra6]

Yeah Im still figuring if I need it, maybe do a seperate try, because I do like the looks of it. But first I've got to finish the model and some renders I allready have in mind :)

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

looking great "cobra6" keep up the good work.

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

An update, got internet again ;)

The hull so far was modelled at work and the turret in the evening at home, so two seperate files, that is why you have to forgive me if the turret is misplaced a bit, had to merge the files with photo refference instead of blueprints :)

@Hitori: My name is Joep ;)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther2.jpg

Additional angles
http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther3.jpg

Hope you like!

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

sorry Joep, great work on the panther! ur inspiring me for my next project.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Excellent work sir!

Bearing your comments in mind, I think the turret is a bit too small, certainly width-wise - or maybe I'm just too used to looking at it's bigger brother!

You've done a great job on the glacis MG mount BTW - I didn't realise it was so different from the KT.

[JFandL]

great WIP,
Makes me want to get back to my P4

[cobra6]

You've done a great job on the glacis MG mount BTW - I didn't realise it was so different from the KT.

KT? cant figure out what that means at the moment :)

@: JFandL: This can be made on a P3 also I guess, since its fairly low poly, only rendered with nurms :)

Thanks for all the nice comments guys :)

Cobra 6

[giant551]

hey cobra as always leading the way with the details !! great job with this one i really like the welds:)

[Karras]

¡¡ Esta precioso !! Spanish expression ;)

Very,very pretty model & job. I like thoses welds, Can you show the bump maps for make them ? In small size of course :rolleyes:

[cobra6]

well basically the welds are made like this, nothing really fancy. Possibly add another layer ontop of the 50% gray with a blurred white or black brush with low opacity to give it a bit of a bulging effect.
Also you can change between pixel sizes of the line to add more random effect to it...

Cobra 6

[Karras]

:eek: Alucinado me dejas.( Spanish Expression.) :eek:
I think that will be of another way , but it's very simple and the effect it's really Good. Thanks Cobra.

[cobra6]

yeah some tweaking, and other things combined gives a nice effect this way :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Sorry, I'm lazy - King Tiger.:D

I wondered what had happened to your P4 John...

[cobra6]

here is an update again. Worked on the turret this weekend. Didnt have time to work on the hull at work because of a busy week :)

Atleast now it can function as an Atlantic Wall fortification ;p

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther4.jpg

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Nicely done mate!

The only comment I do have is that some of the edges of the muzzle brake look a bit too harsh to me - the other German tanks were smoother in this area.

Looking forward to seeing the barrel travel lock!

[falcon012]

Excellent work! It's always amazing to me the amount of detail which goes into these 3D projects. I can't wait to see it with skins and textures

[Hitori Kyo]

great work joep, any ideas on how your going to paint it ?

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

@ Lukem: Which edges? the front or the openings?
My refference show different amount of smoothness to the muzzle brake, so it's hard to choose the right one :)

@falcon: Thanks:) cant wait either but have to finish it first ^_^

@Hitori: No have no Idea currently, there are some very fine schemes available, but I dont know my setting for the renders yet. I know the content though thats why I made this one, but I'm not going to spoil it ;)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

The first image shows the 75mm muzzle brake off a PzIV - it shouldn't be too dissimilar. Sadly, the only photo I got of a Panther G (which has got the end of the barrel in it) is blurred.

The edge marked 'A' wants to be a little bit smoother IMHO, but it isn't far out. I think with area 'B', you could try making the widest point wider and putting in a convex bevel - you definitely want to lose the sharp edge just in front (between A and B). Also notice how the back openings are curved - as if there is another bevel on the back section.

Hope this helps - sorry if I seem a bit too 'picky':)

[cobra6]

I have these refs, Of which one show sharp and one shows smooth...

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Well I never! You learn something new everyday - thanks mate!:)

I would follow the second image personally (excellent photo BTW - nice to see the rifling). Is the mantlet sitting on a wooden plinth in the first image? If so, is it from an earlier model?

[cobra6]

yeah looks like wood :) Yeah the first has the mantlet of a Panther "A" or early "G" :)

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

Guess ill have to wait and see what scheme you go with. also your turrent still looks a little small or havn't you fixed that yet ?

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

not yet. That will be fixed when I merge the files if I finish the turret o the hull. Will set up plans at the exact measurement of the tank then, and fit the models in with a "Reset Xform" . Hope I dont lose my UV weld though hahaha.

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

ah all good then =D, hope you dont lose your weld either hehe.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Would it be possible to bake the welds?

[Niels]

WOW! Looks good Cobra!

[cobra6]

@Lukem, asked here at work and the guy sais the UVwrap will stay even after reset Xform :)

@Niels, Thanks :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Excellent news mate!

[digiartist]

Its shaping up very nicely Cobra, best looking tank of the war:)
One thing though, it might just be a perspective thing but the turret looks a little too narrow from the front. The turret base edges should be a lot closer to the hull sides looking from the top. Anyway, I cant wait to see this one finished :)

[cobra6]

hmmm I fixed it in the new version, but now I get "out of memory" errors when rendering since I put in the tracks =/ See if it renders at work tomorrow..

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

finally after two days of searching for the reason for the "out of memory error" I found my fault ^_^

Here are the new renders with tracks and part of the wheels :)

Updated with the correct render.

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther5.jpg

Cobra 6

[Eraserhead]

Wow! Amazing attention to detail. I can't wait to see it fully textured.

[Mirko]

Thats looking amazing! Very impressive, Cobra.

[Caman0]

looks awesome

for some reason in find it, not wide enough, the turret in particular.
I could be wrong, but it strikes me as being too thin...

Great work man!!! :)

[cobra6]

updated now with the right render :) including welds and soft shadows.

Wel the dimensions are correct, maybe its the angle.

Cobra 6

[kevjon]

Top modelling job.

[Caman0]

Hey man

looking at it again, i found this:
http://www.caman.nl/zooi/panther5.jpg

you use path deform to place your tracklinks?

Sorry for detail-bitchin, but its constructive crits :)

Great work!

[Hitori Kyo]

very nice joep!

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

Hey man

looking at it again, i found this:
http://www.caman.nl/zooi/panther5.jpg

you use path deform to place your tracklinks?

Sorry for detail-bitchin, but its constructive crits :)

Great work!

I know that too, still finding a way to which the pathdeform wont scale the tracks =/

Thanks for the nice comments so far guys :)

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

Things done this weekend: :)
-Did the backside of the turret and some details, now only need to do some hooks for spare tracks, and some vent holes
-Fixed the welds at the back of the turret, they were to smooth IMO
-Did the storage boxes on the back, but havent finished them yet so no detail of them as of yet
-added the MG at the front
-Added more detail to the front fenders (how do you call them? ) :)
-added the traverse lock (Lukem you requested it a while back I seem to remember ;) )
-Drivers periscope almost completely added

still need to add loads of details all around but slowly I'm getting there. Hope you like the update:)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther6.jpg

Cobra 6

[martin_3d]

Cobra you are a Genius !!!

[Hitori Kyo]

fantastic joep! cant wait to see this finished and textured!

- Hitori Kyo

[digiartist]

Its really taking shape Cobra, looking forward to seeing the finished article. I've noticed something about the commander's hatch though. It looks way too small to me , I dont think he could squeeze out of there! As a comparison the loader's hatch at the back is much bigger and more accurate in size.
Fantastic progress all the same!

[cobra6]

hmmmm.... will see into that one, allthough I'm pretty sure it is correct this way. Hope for my sake I'm right ;) But thanks for notifying me :)

@Hitori: Did a basic colour test for the material setup, but not good enough to show right now sorry :)

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

ah i see, well look forward to updates... Digiartist looks right about the commanders hatch also =s.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Great update mate!

So Pathdeformer automatically rescales objects? Is there an option to rationalise the scaling? Mind you, I tend to place them manually - I've used an Iterator plugin once (unsuccessfully).

The gun traverse lock looks good...:D

One thing I was told here (by Gareth, if I remember correctly) is to be careful about how big / heavy you make the weld seams and having tried to paint the King Tiger turret, I'd say the smaller (or thinner if you prefer) you make the channel for the seam, the easier it is. I'd gather it's even more important if you are planning to coat your Panther in zimmerit. I just wonder if the welds at the rear of the turret may be slightly too deep - just my opinion.

More!:D

[scrimski]

Using a SplineIK would avoid this deformation caused by Pathdeform, but it requires more work,unless you plan to animate it I would suggest to correct this by adding an ePoly modifer and correct the distorsions manually.

Or put some dust on it in the rendering.

[cobra6]

@Lukem, no zimmerit for the first renders I'm planning :) But the weld size is correctly modelled, but maybe I'll adept the style in the final bumpmap, but the depth of the welds is roughly the same everywhere.

@skrimski. Will see into that, for my renders I'm planning on modelling/Mudboxing some mud for the tracks and wheels, so It can be covered up indeed.

I'll see if I have some spare time this weekend ;)

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

ooo mudbox look forward to seing it.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Okay - it just looked more prominent at the back to me.

I can't wait to see some mudbox mud on it - have you got the full commercial version? If so, what's it like to use?

[cobra6]

@Lukem: Im going to try it and see if it works how I like it :)

here is a (lirerally) small update, rendered with MAX9 this time to see how that works. Cool update with mental ray is that it calculates final gathering points WHILE rendering now. So first you get a pretty jaggy image, and second pass which goes very fast cleans it all up nicely. Saves about 20 mins. on my panther I think.

Did the front and back wheels today, and some detail on the back. But highres renders will be due tomorrow since I dont know If I get the time to work on it some more :)

Hope you like, and sorry for the small size :)

Cobra 6

[Martocticvs]

This is looking really good!

[cobra6]

Sorry for the very shitty quality of lighting but I kept getting memory allocation errors and I've tried for 6 hours to get it to render.

So eventually I switched off the GI and Final gather and got this shot off, probably until next weekend to try and fix it.

Things done:
-Front and back wheels
-Tools on the left side
-Front fenders more detail added
-back of the turret
-Unwrapped the turret
-Storage boxes at the back
-Detail at the back
-Radio antenna

more details

Hope I eventually get this memory sh*t fixed =/ I'm really pissed of it wont work because I put in a lot of detail this weekend, and I cant seem to find what causes the crashes.

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/34.jpg

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

great work joep! i guess ur just putting all the fine details and finishing touches in now, almost time to texture any ideas yet ?

- Hitori kyo

[Mirko]

Precise and detailed job! Compliments cobra.
:salute:

[cobra6]

Things left now are still:

-Tools at the right side
-Suspension
-Ventilation holes in the turret
-Hooks on the turret
-Some small details like rings at the front and some bolts.

@Hitori: I am still diciding on the camo, but there are some stripe and spot patterns I liked :)

@Mirko: Thanks :)

Cobra 6

[falcon012]

Wow, the model is looking great.

[Martocticvs]

Welcome to the header!

[Caman0]

awesome-ness right there!!

Love the weldings!

[cobra6]

wow did not expect this:) thank you!

Cobra 6

[krazycolin]

nice work... the only comment i would have is... are you sure that the turret is lifted that far off the body? in all the pics and footage i've seen it's a lot closer to the body, in fact it is touching the body...

congrats on the header...

[cobra6]

nice work... the only comment i would have is... are you sure that the turret is lifted that far off the body? in all the pics and footage i've seen it's a lot closer to the body, in fact it is touching the body...

congrats on the header...

that is indeed so, put it a little higher when working :)
Havo to find the current memory problem first though, cant render decently since I made some details past weekend ...

Cobra 6

[digiartist]

Congrats on the header Cobra!

[krazycolin]

ah.. sorry... missed that one....

[Hitori Kyo]

congrats on the header ... is about time hehe.

- Hitori kyo

[kiwi123]

Congrats on your header !

[Skyraider3D]

Good job and congrats on the Header, mate :)

[cobra6]

Thanks guys :)

@hitori: heheh

Cobra 6

[Karras]

Welcome to the header Master ;) Congrats.

[Niels]

Looks great Cobra! Congrats with your header!

[cobra6]

yay! found out the Backburner rendering split scanline does seem to render, set it to 16 strokes, and am at 6 or so, it failes every pass once since to much is still in the memory so early, but it goes on. So I'll have full decent shots tomorrow I think :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Congrats on a well deserved header mate!:)

Looking forward to the new renders.

But (and this is something I'm finding out for myself), if you are struggling to render now, what are you going to do when you try to texture it? (please tell me - I need ideas!):D

[cobra6]

render smaller strips I guess :P

Some delay in the renders, forgot to put in the output file so it rendered for 4 hours for nothing=/ hahah, tonight or sometime tomorrowmorning :(

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

here is a shot:) two more comming over tomorrow, please look over the jaggy edges, forgot to put the filtering on 4 for this job. Two other will be smoother ;)
Im am really glad it renders, need some refining to do in some setting because this render took about 3 hours, 20 scanlines at around 18min a piece.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

As a matter of interest, how much ram has your machine got? I've had to cut my textures down to 4500 x 4500 otherwise I just get out of memory errors - that's using 1gb.

Look forward to seeing more mate!

[cobra6]

1.5GB. But maybe you should try backburner too. My textures have a res of 4000x4000 as of now (bump only at the moment, got an error with my first diffuse try).

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

What is backburner? Isn't that something that comes with Max?

How have you broken the textures down? Is it one map for the whole thing, or one for the turret, one for the hull, e.t.c.? Also, would saving the diffuse map as a jpeg temporarily help?

[cobra6]

Yup that comes with MAX indeed. Textures will be:
-Turret
-Hull
-Wheels
-Tracks
as of now. MAX can use a function called Bitmap pager to put textures temporarily on the HD when rendering, have to try it out first if I need it though hehe.

Here is the update, finally got good renders:)
Small things to fix now, replacing the tracks with an IK spline and some minor details left.

enjoy ;)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther7.jpg

Cobra 6

[Galgot]

:eek: That is nice Cobra ! Specially that rear view. Impressing.

[Lukem]

I've got to go for the side view personally!

Great work mate! You might want to look at some of the shadows that the mesh screens are casting though.

Can't wait for more!:D

[digiartist]

lovely work cobra!

[cobra6]

@Glagot: Thank:) almost can wait to texture it :(

@Lukem: What do you mean? which screens? :)

@Digi: Thanks, hope I'll get near some of your work with my renders in the near future ;)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

You know the big circular vents behind the turret? Those ones:D In particular, look around the base of the higher, port side vent - the light appears to be making the mesh cast shadows behind the vent.

[cobra6]

you mean the white square? If so that is in fact and edge ;)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

I have ringed the areas in red.

[cobra6]

lol how could I miss that ^_^
Maybe setting the material to dual sided next time for that part..

cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Maybe setting the material to dual sided next time for that part..Better model the inside. Dual-sided materials slow down renders significantly.
Looks great! Some of the renders got a 3D printer model feel to it :)

[cobra6]

Better model the inside. Dual-sided materials slow down renders significantly.
Looks great! Some of the renders got a 3D printer model feel to it :)

Ok. well I looked at the part again and it does have thickness. So I guess its a rendering error of some sort.

Working on the textures now, unwrapped the hull last weekend (6 hours work) and did the basic camo layer.

I'll see if it has the same error in the upcomming renders :)

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Hmm odd. What scale do you work in? Centimeters? Sometimes if your scale is too small these kind of problems happen if the shadow bias is set too high.

[cobra6]

True scale, around 9000cm long if I remember correct.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

6 hours to unwrap - that's quick work! Looking forward to see it.

[Skyraider3D]

True scale, around 9000cm long if I remember correct.90 meters? :)

[Hitori Kyo]

ooo i look forward to seeing this camo.

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

Lol sorry, 900cm :P

Lukem: Had the weld and the plates unwrapped allready for the weld-bump. So only had to redo some parts and the details.

Hitori: Simple flecktarn, but I want to do a splinter one too, looks nice :)

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Centimeters shouldn't give any prolems with rendering. I find in MAX anything between 1 and 1000 units works great. When it gets too big or too small you may run into accuracy problems, but you should be save there. Not sure what caused the artefact. It doesn't seem to happen on all renders.

[cobra6]

Indeed. Thats the weird thing. But I rendered with backburner in strips, maybe thats the cause. But I have to tweak it some more :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

I'm confused. Joep, could you post a render of the circular mesh grille on it's own please?

What does backburner actually do?

[cobra6]

It is a network renderer. You can assign render jobs to specific pc's, pause them and edit them on the fly.

BUT you can also use it to render on your own system in strips, which saves memory because it doesnt load 3Dmax and the model, only the rendering engine.

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

Damn. It wont render anymore with textures, and there is really no way to get it to render this time.
I think I have to wait for my new system in June before I can progres on this one=/

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

You need to check out your system mate. It seems to be performing really slowly. I never had MAX refuse to render something, with exception of using really huge e-light domes where I ran out of memory due to too much shadow map usage.

[Lukem]

I'm really sorry to hear that - are you looking at a big upgrade?

As far as textures go, what format are you using, JPG or PSD? Is it worth scaling the maps down a bit, say 4000 down to 3000?

[cobra6]

they are 2024x2024 allready. The model just takes up to much ram somehow.
Waiting for my 64 bit system, currently I'm stuck with:

3,2 Ghz (32 bit)
1.5 GB DDR

It isnt slow when rendering, but it just can put every detail in the memory when rendering the model. It translates the model and just quits with an error message.

Hoping to get a 64 bit core-duo and 4GB DDR2

I am still texturing, so it'll be finished soon. But until I can find a system with more RAM i'm kind of stuck =/

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

thats a real shame joep, i hope u get a successful render out soon.

- Hitori kyo

[Eraserhead]

I had some problems trying to render my StuG IV with Max a while back. I had each track link sub-Ded and when I turned them all on Max would just crash with a render; way too many polys.

Good luck with fixing the problem.

[Skyraider3D]

I think it's your lighting setup that's the problem. How is your scene lit?

[cobra6]

Skylight with HDRI probe
Mental Ray spot with a big size (to get soft shadows)

Mental Ray with GI and final Gathering on

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Mental Ray spot with a big size (to get soft shadows)I think that's where your problem is. If you disable it, will it render?

Maybe try E-Light for soft shadows, or do a second render with the occlusion material and multiply it on top of your render.

Personally, I don't like Mental Ray much at all and don't use it. It seems to give more problems than it's worth and yours only add to that belief :)

[cobra6]

Dont remember for 100% but I believe I also tried radiosity and Light tracer....

Cobra 6

[Eraserhead]

Does it let you render only a part of the mesh, not the whole thing?

[Skyraider3D]

Dont remember for 100% but I believe I also tried radiosity and Light tracer.... Maybe try e-light and a single directional light, using the standard scanliner renderer?

[cobra6]

yeah will try that this weekend:) results will look pretty fugly though then :(

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Why? :confused:

[cobra6]

dont know, somehow I cant get it to look like GI and anti aliased

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Post or e-mail me a sample render and I can point out what you might be doing wrong. Most likely you're making the dome too big (it should be about 3x as big as your tank).

[cobra6]

No tried E-light today with no advanced lighting (scanline) and it rendered! haha yay!. Not the best quality so far. But I'm still tweaking.

Also there are still some errors in my UVmap, but here is the texture so far :)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther8.jpg

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Hooray! Nice to see a new render - well done for getting over the problems mate!

UV mapping something like this must be a nightmare without Bodypaint, but it looks good so far. I assume that you'll lighten the dunkelgelb a bit eventually? Looks a touch dark to me, but that's just my opinion.

Nice to see it back!:)

[Skyraider3D]

See? There ya go! :)

To improve the quality, check the "overshoot" button, increase the segments to about 5, lower the shadow bias to 0.001 and increase the shadow density to 1.5.

As for the texture, I think the sand colour needs to be brighter and more towards yellow, while the green needs to be desaturated a good bit and be a bit yellower, while the brown colour needs to be slightly redder. But I am no armour expert, so don't take my word for it.

[Hitori Kyo]

congrats on getting the render working Joep, i agree with Lukem & Skyraider about the colours.

- Hitori kyo

[Red Komet]

Great Job!!!

Only some things are missing, commander cupola it's too large and all periscopes on cupola are missing.

However... again Great JOB!!!

[cobra6]

Cupola size is correct, but indeed the periscope cases are missing :)

About the colours, I got them from a chart, but I will see again:)

Cobra 6

[matchias]

Looks Great Can't Wait Next Update.

[Eraserhead]

I like the weathering, however the colors are off.

Here is a site that has good color reference(Dunkelgelbn, Olivgrün, Schokolade)

http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/wh_camo-a.htm

I can't wait to see it textured in all its glory :)

[cobra6]

Thank for that link, bookmarked it. Have two PDF's with colous too, but I'm going to desaturate them a bit when I'm finished.

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

"Pure" colour samples never work as-is. You always need to fade them a bit.
Instead try to find clear colour photos of original wartime paint. Here's a perfect sample for your Panther:
http://www.german-helmets.com/Camouflaged%20Gallery%20Nine.htm

[cobra6]

Thanks Ronnie, but also photos give different colours as you might know:)

But I will tweak the colours as soon as all the UV's have been made, so I can do them all at once.

But also the tone variation is render dependant. They are not so bright and colourfull when rendering with mental ray (the pieces that it DID render before it hang hahah)

Cobra 6

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Thanks Ronnie, but also photos give different colours as you might knowNever sample colours directly from a photo, but try to achieve the same look wit "homemade" colours.

[Hitori Kyo]

very true skyraider, that helmet is good ref thanks for showing.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Yep - thanks for the link sir!:)

[Peter Ewbank]

During the latter stages, fighting had moved away from areas of wide open sun yellowed fields into areas where there was much more forestation. If Panzers had camouflage at all (some went out wearing the dark yellow only, some with little more than factory red primer) much broader swathes of red-brown and green were applied in accordance with instructions from above.

The other pattern applied as well as broad swathes of colour were narrow stripes as seen on many Jagdpanther.

Anyway, look at the Tiger below before it was repainted. There's not much dk-yellow showing at all. A lot of Panthers were fielded with the same type of scheme.

[Hitori Kyo]

yeh i agree with peter on that one, although a paint shortage cound indeed hamper the crews, making them use the paint they could obtain sparingly... also a crew may not have had alot of time. (the tiger above's camo paint was not field applied)

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

332 was one of the few Tigers attached to Kampfgruppe Peiper during the Ardennes offensive that didn't have the 'Ambush' (or 'Light and Shade' if you prefer) camo. scheme - it may have been factory applied.

We'll never know for certain, but what I've read suggests that factory applied camo. schemes stopped during the summer 1944 and dunkelgelb base coats stopped later in the year - to be replaced with olivegruen. I seem to remember a rather perculiar colour scheme mentioned in Jverson's KT thread. I gather the reason for the change was due to lack of dunkelgelb paint - nothing more.

Then again, Michael Wittman's last Tiger was reported to be largely green and that was mid - 44.

I can't see the Panther being much different in colour scheme to the Tigers - but I stand to be corrected.

[cobra6]

Finished and corrected the UVmap of the turret. And changed the camo scheme to the correct colours:)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther9.jpg

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Sorry mate, but those colours aren't close yet.

[cobra6]

lets look at them again today then :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Personally, I think the green and brown are a bit too bright - I don't think the dunkelgelb is too far out. It'll be interesting to see what you come up with in the end.

[Peter Ewbank]

Here's a link you should try. Many of these model makers have camouflage absolutely down, although I think the brown should be a bit redder in this example… http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/pantherdyf_1.html

[digiartist]

Great to see you've reached the texturing stage Cobra! Panzer colours are very difficult to get right. I think looking at your texturing you need to strip out a lot of the saturation and really build up layers of subtle weathering. I found with the King Tiger that my fist pass on the colours were well off and it was only when I pulled the saturation right back that things started to look better.

Luke, Wittman's last Tiger (007) from the photos I've seen and what I've read on the Missing Lynx was primarily Dunkelgelb with a light overspray of a red\brown and green squiggle. His assigned Tiger (205) was much heavier in it's camo scheme, his Villars Bocage Tiger (231,222?) had a similar camo scheme to 205:)

[matchias]

Hi
Beautiful Model Cobra,

[cobra6]

@Matchias: Thanks :)

@Digi: I am planning to do that soon. Did some small weathering on the turret today and fixed the problem with the bumpmap not rendering (size was still 6000x6000, forgot to scale it down=/)

color update below, the e-light was set yellowish in the previous renders so switched it back to white for now.

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Try brightening the yellow a good bit, then restoring some of its saturation. The green needs to be slightly darker, but is pretty close already. The brown needs to be a bit darker with increased saturation.

[cobra6]

I think it also has to do with monitor settings....watching it at work here the colours seem to be much less saturated... (TFT here) than at home (CRT).

Will do some more weathering first and see how that affects the overall color.

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Many TFTs have a rather lurid saturation setting. Try toning it down, because it's not correct. If you want to print your work at some point, you'll find you'll lose even more saturation.
I've never liked TFTs for that reason (and a number of others) but made the switch earlier this year. I got a fairly expensive one that is hand calibrated and the colours are pretty close to that of the CRTs I'm using at work. So far it's been alright working on the TFT, although for render post-editing editing I still prefer CRTs.

[cobra6]

Well I work on it at home, so I'm holding on to my own CRT.

Cobra 6

[schoenrock]

i love the modeling, kind of gives me a goal for my AUSF D. im not liking the camo desing though. just does not look right. i guess it could be the bright colors though. not sure. otherwise, amazing work.

[cobra6]

I dont like this scheme either but for basis it can be made fast enough ;) It is more a base for the weathering.

Cobra 6

[Peter Ewbank]

Yep, armour just was not painted like that. The splotches are not rough enough at the edges and they are too evenly distributed. Also after D-Day the predominant scheme (if camouflage was applied at all) was to have less dark yellow showing through and more green and red-brown. Get a spray can and a large board of some kind and spray a large area and you'll see what is evident in much of the ww2 photography - rough paint jobs uneven density of colour and dribbles. Then hobnail boots from Pz. Grenadiers clambouring all over the vehicle - resulting in deep scratches down to the primer and sometimes into the steel, worn off areas of camouflage paint from sitting, kneeling, sliding leaving only the base dark yellow and in fact shining it up in places. Areas that were not accessible to wear rapidly accumulated dust which is more of a beige kin of dark yellow but thoroughly matt in finish.

[Peter Ewbank]

I read my message and wondered if I should be more encouraging - so here's what is good. The model is fantastic. I have visited this thread every day for 2 weeks or more to enjoy what is already here and praying deep in my soul that the historically correct camouflage will go on to this vehicle.

I've been to several Museums around the world and the modern repaints are for the most part embarassingly wrong. I am hoping that this model as well as making me go wow will also make me go YES when it is rendered with Camo (and rust and dirt maybe).

[cobra6]

I read my message and wondered if I should be more encouraging - so here's what is good. The model is fantastic. I have visited this thread every day for 2 weeks or more to enjoy what is already here and praying deep in my soul that the historically correct camouflage will go on to this vehicle. .

Yep, armour just was not painted like that. The splotches are not rough enough at the edges and they are too evenly distributed.

As I said this is just a base for the weathering, and allthough you might disagree this profile IS indeed in the books :)

About the edges you maybe right, but again I am going to change the camo, just need to get the colors correct first on a simple pattern :)

Cobra 6

[Aceman]

Cobra,

Fantastic modeling job. It's definately top shelf.

I have a few suggestions:
1. The model is modeled perfectly.. infact too perfectly. I realize your still developing the model, but I think applying alittle damage (lack of a better word) to the model would go along way toward making it appear more realistic. For example the panels, which are acting as mud-guards directly above the treads are all in perfect alignment. I woudl suggest slight variations to those panels, because as the tank is used, all kinds of objects are pulled up and strike these plates, so variations on these panels would really add to the model. IMHO.
2. The textures you've created need a bump map, even if only very slight, to give the metal plating a slight variation, which is more in-line with how the plating would be, because they were welded by hand, then assembled.

I haven't read all 17 pages of this thread, so if you've already covered this my apologies, I merely offer my suggestions for your consideration.

Aceman

[cobra6]

I know, I'm not finished modelling yet and I'll do the damage last. its still missing tools and the side mudguards/plates and some other parts.
Havent made a bumpmap besides the welding yet. but I tend to do everything at once in later stages of modelling, like texturing the parts that ARE finished haha.

Cobra 6

[Red Komet]

Cobra6

I checked my references, on Panzertracts 5-3 (the one on Panther G)
The scale drawings show that the commander's cupola didn't overhang left side turret, as your 3d model. The cupola could be too large the cupola or it's placed in wrong way.

;-)

Cheers

[cobra6]

I have different refferences showing it hang over a tad. it was a loose part :)

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

Id have to agree with "Red Komet" i cant find any Ausf G photos with a cupola overhang. ....Give Joep a break guys he has already stated he is doing weathering and completing the model before he worries about the colours.

@ "Peter Ewbank" the paint was applied in many ways, not everyone had the luxury of a spray gun which would give the softer apearance.. if it was handpainted the edges would indeed be sharp, also colours could vary a great deal in how they thined prior the aplication and also how the paint was applied.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Thanks for the correction Gareth! I got a bit mixed up...:D

Looking great Cobra! One trick you might want to try with the colour channel is to duplicate the basic colour (with camo.), set it to multiply (low opacity) and gently erase bits just to break things up a bit - the colour looks a little flat to me. I'm watching your weathering progress with interest!:D

Looking forward to seeing more!

[cobra6]

here a new update, had some time this weekend to do the following things:

-(almost) fixed the UVmap of the hull, and got rid of some errors
-Tweaked the colors of the camouflage according to Skyraiders tip after the previous render
-Added more weathering (which might need some more opacity eventually)
-Made the exaust rusty, since when running for 20 minutes the generated heat would destroy any paint on it.

hope you guys like it so far :)
http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther10.jpg

Cobra 6

[gewehr]

This is coming along better and better each post, very nice!
Now, when speaking of the weathering for the texture, unless there is a fresh over paint of camouflage on the vehicle, there would be a lot of areas where the painted cammo would be worn, faded and chipped off (specifically on the raised areas and corners of the vehicle) revealing the basecoat of dunkelgelb or even the bare metal.
Keep up the excellent work!

[cobra6]

This is coming along better and better each post, very nice!
Now, when speaking of the weathering for the texture, unless there is a fresh over paint of camouflage on the vehicle, there would be a lot of areas where the painted cammo would be worn, faded and chipped off (specifically on the raised areas and corners of the vehicle) revealing the basecoat of dunkelgelb or even the bare metal.
Keep up the excellent work!

I know ^_^ one step at a time but thanks for that tip.
I'm continuesly searching for refference photos as I work.

Cobra 6

[Eraserhead]

I love the footprints on the engine deck! Do you plan on modeling the crew?

[cobra6]

I need atleast an arm for the scene for which I modelled this one hahah:)

The footprints go all the way to the front aside the turret. Was kind of funny figuring out how one would place his feet when walking around:lol:

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

I rendered a small 360 movie (png sequence) today and made an exe of it in flash for those who want to see it.
Renders comming up in two days, still texturing :)

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

A new update, more weathering and had to fix some turret UV issues again.
Almost getting to the paint chipping part

The wheels have a basic dust layer, no clogged mud yet :)

I do have some colour related questions, what are the basic colours of:
Track segments
Bare metal (chipping)
Primer (for under the camo)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther11.jpg

for the fast ones: yes the profile is mirrored, looked better this way ;)

Cobra 6

[Spinner]

Don't know about the primer but the tracks and body metal would be steel. Polished by movement in the wear areas. Like a current 'dozer track.

[Lukem]

Good work mate!

From what I've read, the primer tended to be a dull red (red oxide).

[bzhyoyo]

coming along together very nicely. I especially like the profile view :)

[digiartist]

Lovely stuff Cobra, the profile looks great! I still think you need to take quite a lot of saturation out of your colours though, cant wait to see the finished article :)

[cobra6]

@spinner and lukem: Thanks for the colour pointers, will look into them more:)

@bzhyoyo and digi: Thanks, thats why I put it in, like it very much too^_^

@Digi: I will first finish all the weathering since now the colours allready differ greatly from the start, and I also need to put in the final camo scheme first.
Been looking at your tank work for some nice refs btw hehe.

Cobra 6

[Mirko]

Great stuff mate !! Very nice profile.
:salute:

[Lukem]

No worries mate - glad to help.:)

Looking forward to the next update...

[Hitori Kyo]

Great work joep, keep up the nice work! only thing id say is to darken the welds as they would hold alot more dirt and dust.

- Hitori kyo

[Lukem]

Would ambient occlusion help with that?

[cobra6]

I dont know. But I indeed only put the camo on the welds up until now :) that explains why they are still clean.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

The thing is, you have some geometry that sinks in to the turret side (for example) - I've found with the KT that a bit of AO darken those areas up anyway; no need to paint them. C4D has a scene based AO setting; does 3DS have something similar, just to test the theory?

[cobra6]

AO?
sorry if that is a stupid question =/

Cobra 6

[StarForce]

i think he means the ambient occlusion map

btw amazing work

[Lukem]

Yep - sorry mate I do mean Ambient Occlusion:)

[cobra6]

lol never worked with that. might try :) thanks for the tip, and thanks starforce for the translation ;) (sorry Lukem he got it first ;P)

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

goofed around with mudbox this weekend and tried to put mud on the textures cia normal map, but I think the result is not that satisfactory, so I will fysically model the mud and edit it with mudbox, instead of putting it on a normal map.
Mudbox IS however a very nice program ^_^ but somehow the mud seems to have depth instead of bulging out =/

below is the render btw

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

Looks nice, but brighten up that yellow colour already! ;)

The clumps of mud on the wheels look a bit odd, but with some tweaking they may become more convincing.

[cobra6]

it was just a test to see how the normal map works out, but I've mudboxed those on regular planes and put them on the wheels.
Because if I paint on the wheels (lowpoly) directly, when subdividing it somehow also keeps the normals of the subdivision of mudbox in the map.
Hence I get a smooth max wheel with 8 cornered normals of mudbox (lowpoly bake).
Kind of weird....

So I think it is best to model the mud and edit the mud's map in Mudbox afterwards.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

I do like the weathering mate! I would be tempted to make the mud coverage a bit more universal on the road wheels though - still, I look forward to seeing what comes next.:)

[LegalAssassin]

Looks good, but I'd suggest weathering the barrel a bit more, or give it a spec map - it looks very plain at the moment.

[gewehr]

This is coming along better and better with each pass! Be advised though, if you have thick mud like that on the wheels it would most likely cover the entire undercarrage in the same way not just patches (I know you are just testing it out).

Also, have you decided what type of terrain this vehicle has been crossing? i.e. heavy mud, dirt/dust, mostly urban. . . That would be a good thing to decide before you add too many different elements.

And one more thing, if you look at the darkest, dirtiest part of your hull, that is probably what you will want your road wheels/ track to look like as well. . . just some ideas. Good Luck!

[Hitori Kyo]

Agree with "gewehr" and "Lukem", keep up the good work Joep

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

@Hitori: Thanks :)

@ gewehr: My first render is going to be muddy/grassy terrain, Allready decided on that setting before I began modelling :)

@Legal: Still working on the weathering, have to include gunpowder stains also ^_^

@Lukem: Will do ;)

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

Here's an update again finally, been quite busy the last few weeks, but I managed to work on my panther also.

Added the sideskirts and a new camo (splinter Eastern front '44 / '45) and I'm planning on doing a second one tomorrow.
Also I've made a start on something that eventually and hopefully will resemble a crew ;)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther12.jpg

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

love the new camo joep, good to see something differnt, only things i can say is lighten the dirt on the upper hull and side skirts as its pretty high and thin and will dry fast even in muddy terrain also u still have to desaturate those colours =)

- Hitori Kyo

[Lukem]

That's a unique camo. scheme! Never seen that one before - but definitely nice to see something different! I do have to agree with Hitori though - the colours do need desaturating in my opinion.

The grime looks great on the side skirts also.

[Nostromo]

Your Tank ist perfect. The parts for the tracks from the German Tanks are very complex. Can you show how do you construct this.

[cobra6]

@Nostromo: After searching for two weeks or so I finall found a blueprint of a track segment on a French site. Together with loads of photos I was able to recreate it like this (attached blueprint)

@Lukem: What font did you use on your King Tiger btw? (turret number)

@Hitori: Will desaturate the colours, I wont forget about it ;) But the dirt is still not complete, but I will see about it

Update as of today:
Second splinter camo scheme, base green this time (yes it does exist ;))
Fixed UV errors in the turret welds and the base of the 88 (noticable in the previous render by the yellow square =/)

I'm planning on doing markings tomorrow an possibly finish the modelling process by adding the last tools.

Cobra 6

[Nostromo]

Oh, blueprints are not the problem.

My problem is, how i start with the modeling and the polycount.

[cobra6]

the tracks on the right are for snow conditions, so if you are modelling for western europe that is not of you concern :)

I started with a box actually, subdeviding and cleaning up, extruding, applying smoothing groups, et voila.
Dont use Nurms or meshsmooth as it will only increase the poly count drastically, yet the result is only visible in closeup

I have attached a view of my tracksegment. 1 without lines and 2 with, so you can get the idea. Yet it could still be cleaned up more if I wanted too :)

Cobra 6

[Eraserhead]

I love the new camo. I can't wait to see how you treat this model in a full scene. :)

[Lukem]

@Lukem: What font did you use on your King Tiger btw? (turret number)

Um..I didn't. I did try looking for useable fonts, but couldn't find any.

In the end, I scanned in some model decals, used the scans as a guide and painted them manually.

BTW I prefer the new camo. with the green base coat.

[cobra6]

found fonts on simmers paintshop :)

Update:
-Markings (back & side)
-Numbers
-Unwrapped and textured the rest of the parts
-Profile of the red splinter turret *with* specular map this time ;)

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/panther14.jpg

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Looking good mate!

No red centre to the numbers? Well done for finding them though - any chance of a link please?

[cobra6]

http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/forums/cat19.html :)

No red centre since all the photos and refference profiles show white front with this camo :)

Cobra 6

[Nostromo]

Thanks for the pics. This help a lot.

[Eraserhead]

What's going on with the tracks between the 4th and 5th wheel?

[Hitori Kyo]

those numbers are hand painted, maybe u shouldnt use a font and just paint them urself .. would give a bit more realism .. also they still need a heap of dirtying and weathering .. keep at it joep ur doing great!

- Hitori kyo

[cobra6]

@poo: Still need to redo the tracks, its still pathfollow :)

@Hitory: Depends if they used a stencil or not, but I still need to "damage" them, so I could let them resemble hand painted :) But thanks for the tip!

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Thanks a lot for the link mate! Nice to see the contemporary photo of it too.

[digiartist]

This is looking great Cobra.....I'm not a big fan of the stripey camo scheme but it looks very cool on your Panther....one thing though, I'm not sure you'd find the stripes intersecting like you have on the 'cross' shape on the turret...but I could well be wrong.....Anyway, I'm big fan of this project and look forward to seeing your final renders! :)

[cobra6]

Refference show that in the green pattern these lines tend to intersect. On my profile they intersect on the turret because I traced them over the whole side:)

Actually when I started I found the red camo VERY ugly, but somehow I came to like it pretty much. weird actually :)

Cobra 6

[cobra6]

I havent posted any updates lately because I am working on a scene with my panther.

Just thought I post a sneak peak of the WIP

http://www.guuspeters.demon.nl/images/peak.jpg

Cobra 6

[StarForce]

seems to bekome a great image

is this your 109(the one from milimesh) ?

[cobra6]

nope not the detailed one :) This is a lowpoly model I made for this scene.

Cobra 6

[falcon012]

Cool Panther. I'm not a 3D modeler but it looks very detailed and the paint scheme and weathering are superb.

[Lukem]

I love the damage on the skirt (top right image).

The bottom right image: Is the bump supposed to be depicting zimmerit or the cast turret texture? If it's zimmerit, I don't think the pattern is quite right. If it's a cast texture it looks a little regular in my opinion.:)

One question: Why would a '109 attack a Panther? I know the Luftwaffe weren't fans of the other armed forces, but that's pushing it a bit surely?:D

[cobra6]

the 109 didnt attack the panther ;) its flying overhead to attack another threat.

The bump is the cast turret texture, atleast my impression hehe.

You can see some of the fine details because the real resolution is 5500 wide, it is however still a WIP, so things dont yet blend in the best way.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

The '109 issue - that's a relief!:D

Could you post a down-sized sample of your cast turret texture please? As I said, in the render it looks very regular. On the Tiger I used a 'chalk' brush in random patterns.

[cobra6]

I used a noise with a blur. I dont know which setting though.

Cobra 6

[Hitori Kyo]

looking forward to the final image!

- Hitori Kyo

[cobra6]

ok, finally got my new system setup and here is the result
Render: Mental Ray, FG + GI + HDRI
Scene: 2 tanks + groundplane
Memory load: 2,4GB when rendering
Rendertime: 41 mins

System:
Windows XP 64 bit
Intel Core Quad 6600 (4x2,4 Ghz)
4GB Kingston HyperX DDR2 800Mhz
Asus EN8800GTX

goodbye memory errors ^_^, 64 bits does make a significant difference:eek:

Cobra 6

[Karras]

Thoses schemes are more "feos" :lol: :lol: uglies.
Really was painted in this way ? :eek:

[Caman0]

nice setup man!!! *jealous mode*

renders look good, but a bit plastic-like, if i may be so bold ;)

good to see youre back on the panther! :)

[cobra6]

yup really painted these schemes :) I thought they were ugly at first too, but now I like them :)

Plastic look is partially because of the perspective I think, makes them look small like toy tanks.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Don't think the blue background helps either:)

As Caman0 said - great to see this back. I think the green one is my favourite between them; I did notice something a little perculiar at the top of the side skirts, the texture looks tiled in that area? A very nice update though:)

So 64 bit really does make a difference then?

[cobra6]

the dark to light? Those are smoothing errors=/ :( still need to fix them.

But yeah, it makes a world of difference, I believe when rendering on 5000x5000 it wont give an error, have to try for my scene still though but I can advice it if your scene is heavy.

This panther scene with 2 tanks is ~1.5 mil polies.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

1.5 million in under an hour? GI as well no doubt...now I feel sick!:D

[Hitori Kyo]

looking really good, tracks are way to clean tho unless of course you are doing a factory scene. Also more dirt and a more varied spec map will help it look less plastic.

- Hitori Kyo

[cobra6]

1.5 million in under an hour? GI as well no doubt...now I feel sick!:D

UNtweaked under an hour. I could get it to go faster, maybe 20 minutes even :) I just put everything on default setting and pushed render :D

@Hitory: I did not edit anything in the scene, just changed the lighting and render engine to test the new system:) For the actual scene I will model the mud and techture the tracks better ;)

Cobra 6

[Panaristi]

Super work - the germans had some creative camouflage versions have got.:)

[cobra6]

indeed, like other very much too, still need to make them though :)

Cobra 6