Junkers Ju EF128 : WIP

[Mirko]

Repost my old job.
I enclose testrender ( model is not textures ).

:salute:

[Spinner]

With the inlets hidden away under the wings it looks like its got no engine.
Really clean lines.

[Art 111]

German aircraft over switzerland mountains (luft. 1946) :).
Very nice work!

[Meshfan]

Very nice picture of the plane over the Alps. So many experimental planes in WWII. I just watched a documentary of WWII on the History Channel about the Japanese building prototype combat helicopters.

The details and background of the picture is great. She looks so small....... poor pilot...... so little leg and headroom. 0-0

[Mirko]

Hi Spinner, Art111, Meshfan thanks for your comments.

Art111: with operation Tannenbaum it would have been a possible scene, the Luftwaffe over the Alps!!
Nice Hompage Art111 and very nice Aircraft Profile.

Meshfan :a lot interesting, have you pics of the prototypes?

[Mirko]

I've found some time to work on my Ju EF-128!
Rivets and panels, here is the update.
:salute:

[kevjon]

Good one !

[mrys]

Very nice and good model. Congratulations about smooth lines and visual apparition. My only notice is about glass panels behind the cockpit. Probably there was no glass in this place, just metal panels. Of course it is only interpretation few survived drawings of projected airplane, but here glass panels would be almost useless for pilot.

[Mirko]

Kevjon :
Thanks still for the help on the bumpmap! :)

mrys :

Thanks mrys for the comment. Perhaps you have reason. But I think that these panels of glass behind the cabin widen visual the posterior one considerably .

:salute:

[mrys]

Was glass or was not glass - now I'am thinking, that it looks better with then without:D.
Generally good work!

[Mirko]

Was glass or was not glass - now I'am thinking, that it looks better with then without:D.
Generally good work!

OK !
I have seen your EF-128, truly a good job, nice composition. Congratulations for your numerous works. :eek:

[mrys]

Thanx Mirko!:D

[Mirko]

My EF-128 with the texture.
Comments and crits welcome

[Skyraider3D]

Coming along very nicely, mate :)

[kevjon]

Looks really cool so far. Look forward to seeing the final render of it.

[Mirko]

Sky, Kev thanks for the comments!

You have a some suggestion in order to obtain a good render?

:salute:

[giant551]

nice work :) i think the bump looks a little strong maybe ??? but good stuff :D

[kevjon]

Posted by Mirko
You have a some suggestion in order to obtain a good render


I think maybe 2 or 3 of them accelerating upwards to engage a bomber formation could be quite a good render (if you don't have any additional aircraft for them to attack).

I have noticed one thing on you textures..... and that is the fuel spillage on top of the wing is not following the line of flight.

[Skyraider3D]

I have noticed one thing on you textures..... and that is the fuel spillage on top of the wing is not following the line of flight.It shouldn't go straigth back either, though. Swept wings tend to bend the airflow:
http://www.sageaction.com/aircraft%20testing.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0240.shtml

[Spinner]

So it should initially be close to perpendicular to the leading edge, followed by curving around towards parallel with the line of flight?

[Skyraider3D]

Something like that, depending a bit on the features on the wing and proximity to fuselage or wingtip.

[stefanino]

Ciao Mirko!
A very good job!
Congratulations!!!

[Mirko]

nice work :) i think the bump looks a little strong maybe ??? but good stuff :D
Thanks Giant551. I make some tests on the bump, we see if it improves.

nice work :) I think maybe 2 or 3 of them accelerating upwards to engage a bomber formation could be quite a good render (if you don't have any additional aircraft for them to attack).

I have noticed one thing on you textures..... and that is the fuel spillage on top of the wing is not following the line of flight.:D
Good idea Kev, unfortunately I do not have the bomber!! You have reason the fuel spillage is not corrected.

It shouldn't go straigth back either, though. Swept wings tend to bend the airflow:
http://www.sageaction.com/aircraft%20testing.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...cs/q0240.shtml
Thanks for link, Sky. A lot interesting. The Link www.sageaction.com/aircraft%20testing.htm does not connect.

Ciao Mirko!
A very good job!
Congratulations!!!]
Ciao Stefanino, sono felice di sentirti. Spero tu stia facendo delle splendide vacanze!!!
Grazie per i complimenti.

[Skyraider3D]

The Link www.sageaction.com/aircraft%20testing.htm does not connect.Hmm... it does here. Try again. If it still doesn't work I'll send you the pics.

[kevjon]

Good idea Kev, unfortunately I do not have the bomber!!


I should have written my suggestion more clearly so here goes.

I think a good render could be 2 or 3 of them accelerating up to attack and unseen bomber formation

[Skyraider3D]

Overhead contrails can also give a good illusion of the precense of bombers, without actually having to model them! ;)

[Mirko]

I should have written my suggestion more clearly so here goes.

I think a good render could be 2 or 3 of them accelerating up to attack and unseen bomber formation


ok Kev, I have understood. Thanks for the suggestion.


Hmm... it does here. Try again. If it still doesn't work I'll send you the pics.
I have still tried, but nothing! I send you my email. Thanks Sky !

[Mirko]

Hi

After much study here the result of my first job in 3D!! Thanks all those that have helped me and supported, particularly Stefanino (for the translations and the suggestions), Skyrider (Ronnie for the technical support), Kevjon (for the technical support).

Critics are more than welcome!
Cheers ! :salute:

[Skyraider3D]

Hmm... that's a bit of an awkward composition to be honest. Everything seems to be happening around the edges. The attack of the Junkers from 90 degrees seems strange. He wouldn't be able to hit much.

[Mirko]

Hi Ronnie, you have reason.
Which it was the tactics more used for an attack to one formation of B-17 bombers? :)

[Spinner]

If attacking a B-17 at 90 degrees, the best pilots in ETO and PTO, did so in a vertical dive from above and in front to place a wall of cannon shells the cockpit must pass through. Only the skilled guys did it though.
More common was a hi-side pass diving through the formation to break away. Because of the layered formations, he'd then repeat on a lower squadron.
The idea was to cause enough damage to force the bomber out of formation by losing speed or alt, making them far more vulnerable.

[kevjon]

Thats a really good first attempt Mirko.

My crits are
- Wingman seems a bit close
- I'm not a big fan of having planes chopped off on the side of the image for composition reasons

Maybe the image would look better with the Junkers more centred in the image and the fortress a little further away and lower down so they to are more centred.

The image itself is coming along really well....nice work.

[Skyraider3D]

Typical attacks by Me 262s were made by a vic (3 aircraft in V-shape) from the 6-o'clock position. I'd imagine these Junkers would be used in much the same way.
Head-on wasn't doable for jets because of the enormous closure speeds.

[Spinner]

As you say, Ronnie, head on had major probs with closing speeds for all fighters. With jets it was simply out of the question.
I was attempting to describe the 90 degree flight path offset attack some of both German and Japanese ace's developed to attack both B-17 and B-29 bombers. Done badly it lost so much alt the attacker was useless but done correctly it was as devastating as the earlier head-on attacks.
Whether the Junkers could've flown that attack is debateable. It would require the ranks of LW aces to not be depleted. It's possable the climb rate might overcome the difficulty with repeating the attack.
One big attraction was it limited defensive fire to the two gun top turret and that at high offset.

[Mirko]

Spinner, Ronnie thanks for the optimal explanations on the attack tactics.
A lot interesting.
It would be useful to open one thred on the tactics.;)


Thats a really good first attempt Mirko.

My crits are
- Wingman seems a bit close
- I'm not a big fan of having planes chopped off on the side of the image for composition reasons

Maybe the image would look better with the Junkers more centred in the image and the fortress a little further away and lower down so they to are more centred.

The image itself is coming along really well....nice work.


Kev thanks for the comments. You have reason I must modify the composition.

[Mirko]

Hi

I have changed the composition.
I hope you can give me some advices to make this render better.

:salute:

[kevjon]

I think it looks really good Mirko. The most obvious thing I can see that would be worth adding is some grain in Photoshop to you planes. That would help them match the background image more. Skyraider has posted some other post processing tips which I added in "3D tips best of" in the obstacle course. Some of those are worth playing around with to see if you can integrate your plane more into the backdrop.

[Skyraider3D]

Looks a lot better! Very nice.

Some crits:
- colour of the smoke/contrail a bit underfined (either white or brown/black)
- swastika on tailfin is mirrored
- add a hint of bombers being present, either contrails or distant machines (travelling in approx. the same direction)
- integration, as kevin mentioned
- lighting is a bit too dark compared to the very bright backdrop

But the composition is very nice! Keep at it! :cool:

[Spinner]

Technical nit-pick.
Ran the math based on a top speed of 905kmh and a pair of 108s pumping them out at 600rpm from Tony Williams and I get one cannon casing per twice the aircraft's leangth at top speed.
You've got 7 in half the leangth so she's firing at 8,400 rounds per minute each cannon.
We'll write it off to artistic license on your or bad math on my, part. lol

[giant551]

It looks a little dark for me the backdrop is showing a really sunny day but its quite a dark render:) Its looking really nice though:)

[Mirko]

*Thanks Kev. Unfortunately the background image is not of good quality. I will try to add a some grain.


*Thanks Ronnie in order to have pointed out to me the various errors. I will try to correct them.


*:eek: Spinner, thanks for the suggestion. I have calculated that I would have to put every 25.139 m a cartridge!! :)

*Thanks Giant. You have reason the image is too much dark.

[Skyraider3D]

I have calculated that I would have to put every 25.139 m a cartridge!!Maybe use a bit of artistic license to put two or three more or it will look very "empty" :)

While attacking, Me 262s initially didn't fly at top speed as it was impossible to aim when the whole aircraft vibrated, let alone with four MK 108s firing. Gunners often described how jets deployed their flaps during an attack run, slowing down quite a lot. Since jet engines at low speed produce little power, the acceleration after an attack was very poor, making the jets easy targets for gunners. Dropping flaps was thus abandoned and accuracy was sacrificed in favour of survivability.

Another thing, you only show two aircraft. Me 262s often attacked in a vic or "Kette" of three aircraft. Spacing between each aircraft was roughly 150m. The lead aircraft would fly lowest, the left wingman highest of the three. Firing would commence from about 600m - both cannon and rockets. Adolf Galland states that with this technique usually two bombers could be hit in a single pass with three aircraft. He also said that attacks were made at 850 kph to stay faster than allied escort fighters, but this is most likely indicated airspeed and actual speed was a good deal less - say 750 kph.

Besides "rollercoaster" attack techniques, I already have read aco****s of Me 262s hiding in the bombers' contrails, popping out at point blank range and disappearing in the clouds again.


Don't forget, besides shells these ports usually belch out gun smoke as well, which is a bit of a dirty light grey colour.

If I remember correctly, USAAF bomber gunners described the gun flashes from the Me 262 as red and green blinks. But I doubt a green flash would look nice in a render :)

[Mirko]

Thanks Ronnie for the info on the attack techniques. I have tried to follow your suggestions!