PZL 50A Jastrzab (Hawk)

[mrys]

One of my latest works. Polish fighter PZL 50A Jastrzab was built as one completed prototype and few serial PZL 50A, never completed. Until last year was known only photos of prototype (and not all plane but only fragments). Last year 5 photos of uncompleted PZL 50A was foud. I've got honour to try to reconstruct how could this plane looks like, if it would ever finished.
here are few images of it.

[kevjon]

Looks great mrys. No doubt a difficult task trying to get this one right from the minimum amount of reference that is available.

It reminds me a lot of the Curtiss P36 Hawk.

Rhino is giving you models a very precise, crisp look. I like it a lot.
The renders however are probably not realistic enough to sit well with photographic backdrops as all you shadows are washed out and the plane appears to lack specular maps.

Nice work and interesting subject.

[mrys]

Lack of specular map is weaknes of PovRay. Similar effect is possible to get, but need to much work. And it is the reason, that I'll have to change software. Probably will start with Max.

[kevjon]

No worries mrys. I tried Rhino too (on my Gloster Meteor) and really like the software but it became too problematical converting the Rhino nurbs model to a good clean mesh that could be effectively uv mapped in Max. I ended up giving up in frustration. I hope the upcoming versions of Rhino improve their internal meshing utility and I'll be jumping up and down with joy and getting back on the Rhino bandwagon. Alternatively good uv mapping and rendering tools in Rhino would suffice.

[kiwi123]

And again a nice model !!

One of the things that are very apparent to me on every render you posted is that the lighting is not very convincing. Everything lack contrast and is very grey. Looks like your ambient light is set too high. Maybe use ambient occlusion or radiosity to get a better effect ? Dunno if povray will support that. And if you are looking for an alternative renderer, why look at the most expensive one you can get ? There are good cheap alternatives like XSI, LW and the base MAYA. I don't know about nurbs export from rhino to XSI and Maya, might be something there...

[roshent]

It really looks a lot like the Curtiss 75/P36. I haven't seen the pics but your model looks convincing with all the detail. I'm working on a Curtiss 75 (among two other Curtiss designs) but not in Rhino. I used to work in Rhino and still do for flightsim purposes but am switching to polygon modellers as well now that I took up rendering images. Although your comments in your Hurri thread made me look at other renderengines for Rhino. Dunno if you guys tried out the beta version 4 of Rhino but I think until now it doesn't live up to it's expectations.
UV map is still not there (at least not in the beta's I've seen) and with the new mesh tools I wasn't so convinced that they work with the same degree of control that you have for NURBS creation. But then it's a beta, not final yet.

About your PZL50, does this means we can expect an article or book ?

PS: your an expensive poster, your hurri thread made me buy the three Curtiss 75 books :lol:

[Skyraider3D]

I really like your subjects, Marek :)
Nice model!
MAX isn't very good with NURBS, perhaps give XSI a try? You should be able to use your Rhino models, without too many problems converting them from Rhino to XSI. Check here...
http://www.military-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53&highlight=Rhino


PS. It looks more like a P-64 (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p64.htm) than a P-36 :)

[mrys]

One of the things that are very apparent to me on every render you posted is that the lighting is not very convincing. Everything lack contrast and is very grey. Looks like your ambient light is set too high. Maybe use ambient occlusion or radiosity to get a better effect ? Dunno if povray will support that. And if you are looking for an alternative renderer, why look at the most expensive one you can get ? There are good cheap alternatives like XSI, LW and the base MAYA. I don't know about nurbs export from rhino to XSI and Maya, might be something there...

I must agree with you about my lightning problems. PovRay has radiosity inside, and... I used it. Ambient was set to "0" (black):(

I think about Max, cause I was working with few years ago (Max 3 was then at the top), but droped it for duo: Rhino-PovRay because... lack in lightning.

Lightning in PovRay is not bad, but because program has no WYSIWYG GUI (only tekst box for script) everything have to be rendered in low res to many times until you get satisfied effect.

About importing from Rhino... It is not as bad as I thought. Of course meshes are far from optimal, but it is possible to join two methods: some parts in Rhino some in Max. I love to modeling in Rhino, couse for me it is 4 time faster then Max. I will try IGES - NURBS export format understand for Max and change surfaces into mesh in Max.

By the way: is it possible to render final image in max "in part". Today I'll star and after four hours shoutdown computer, next day four hours and next, and next until the end? Or still have to start machine and wait for final?

[mrys]

It really looks a lot like the Curtiss 75/P36.

About your PZL50, does this means we can expect an article or book ?

PS: your an expensive poster, your hurri thread made me buy the three Curtiss 75 books :lol:
Yes, it is very similar, but not the same. The article about PZL 50 was in polish "Lotnictwo" 12/2005.

By the way, buying books about Curtiss maybe you gat one written by guy called Marek Rys;)

And at the end - general 3view plan of PZL 50 reconstructing by me.

[kiwi123]

By the way: is it possible to render final image in max "in part". Today I'll star and after four hours shoutdown computer, next day four hours and next, and next until the end? Or still have to start machine and wait for final?

You can do that in Modo201 (by saving buckets to disk) or in Lightwave with Fprime by refining your render. If you use a scanline renderer, you should be able to render in regions, basically telling it to do bit by bit. However it would be hard to predict what you could do in 4 hours (unlike in modo or LW where you don't have to, you just stop it). But 4 hours sounds like a mighty long time for a render of a still image. Unless you render at big big resolutions.

By the way, if you want me to do a render for you of a model in modo or LW, so you can see the results, let me know, I'll gladly give it a go (will have to be converted to polygons though).

[Skyraider3D]

Just use region render in MAX, it's very easy. Everytime just continue where you stopped last time. Just be sure not to minimise MAX while it's rendering, cause it won't come back until it's done! :)

Also, MAX 5 and older versions have a slight inaccuracy at the borders of regions, so have some overlap. This is fixed in newer versions though :)

[kevjon]

Posted my mrys
I love to modeling in Rhino, couse for me it is 4 time faster then Max. I will try IGES - NURBS export format understand for Max and change surfaces into mesh in Max.

I agree, Rhino is a very quick and precise way to model and you have very good skills with this software.
The Rhino model does import into max via IGES Ok but max's ability to create a good mesh from the nurbs surfaces is extremely ordinary at best. It comes out too low poly and you still have stitch and weld many of the mesh pieces together where the nurbs surfaces join. A really tedious process which negates all the time saved by modelling in Rhino.

I haven't tried it but Skyraiders suggestion of Rhino with XSI might be worth a try if XSI is capable of creating a good mesh from the nurbs model. I think giant551 has gone down this path but has not explored it fully as yet.

Good luck, I really like the work your doing and hope you can find a way forward to get more realistic renders from you Rhino models. I think flamingo has similar limitations as Pov ray (can't do specular maps and no GI or radiosity options).

[roshent]

I just heard about this program Okino Polytrans that is supposedly very good in translating 3D formats between a lot of programs.
Here's the website: http://www.okino.com/default.htm
I havent bought it, since I just heard from it and I want some 'proof' that it works as good as they advertize. It does support Rhino and most other packages. Might be something to investigate.

[kevjon]

This would probably be a better option http://www.npowersoftware.com/ for getting your Rhino model into max it also has tools to create better meshes inside max. I guess it all comes down to how much you want to pay to pursue digital aviation art.

[Skyraider3D]

I had a go with the demo of that, and it's quite promising indeed. But intypical MAX style... hopelessly unstable! :) But that's the modelling bit. The conversion is instant and pretty neat!

[Dann-O]

Cool subject. Like radial engine planes a lto. I remeber a thread a while back on CG talk the modeler had very few referances to go by. Good work.