HMCS Saguenay WIP

[Chukk]

Well a clean slate, time to dirty it up I guess. Rebuilt the hull and it cleaned up real nice now. Still have to "realign" quite a few objects. Thanks Pete for the correct color, looks better already.

[cbhierro]

Hi to all,

A great model my congratulations by your work. ;)

A greeting and good hunts.

[pete.cook]

Looks good Chukk. There are quite a few smoothing errors around the hull, you might want to add a Smooth modifier to the stack. The colour looks great, glad I could be of service. The lifeboats looks a little too segmented too.

I think the bow shot looks great, very effective against the white.

Looking forward to some more.

[Chukk]

I noticed those as well, It looks a little segmented because of the lighting. I only used about 12 light with e-light and it cast segmented shadows, still playing with renders (easy to get carried away playing with that). I'm looking for some reference material for the signal lamps. Anyone out there have a links where I could find some pics or 3 views. TKS

[Meshfan]

Cool renders. What's the caliber of her bow gun? The barrels look awfully short for a ship that carries a helicopter.

Great renders no doubt.

[Chukk]

Your right they're not something to brag about. 3" 50 guns. Main use was for anti-aircraft. They could be radar controlled or manual, but in either mode still required manual reloading. Of note, the crews were using these guns for almost 30 Years! So it wasn't uncommon for them to win markman skill when competing off of Rosy Roads for gun shoots.

[Meshfan]

Your right they're not something to brag about. 3" 50 guns. Main use was for anti-aircraft. They could be radar controlled or manual, but in either mode still required manual reloading. Of note, the crews were using these guns for almost 30 Years! So it wasn't uncommon for them to win markman skill when competing off of Rosy Roads for gun shoots.



:eek: :eek:

Wow. She is even more lightly armed than a frigate.

[Archetype]

you need to fix the shadows indeed..
try using more lights

this will spread the shadow a bit


great improvement on the hull though

good progress since your last attempt!

[Chukk]

Believe it or not, she was one of the most cutting edge ships when built in the early 50's! Canada as part of a brand new NATO family took on the responsabilites of Anti- sub work, these ships when built had all of the very latest. But like most countries, until they are threatened, they put their military budget farther and farther down the money line until by the mid 1980's most of these ships where just an embarrassment. I might sound spiteful at the moment but I have served on both the St. Laurent and Iroquois class ships and felt both pride and embarrassed. The best one I heard was of an American CO who commented "Man if they can hit bulleyes with bows and arrows, imagine what they could do with rifles!" It has only been in the late 1990's that the Canadian Navy has finally been given "rifles"! But sure enough just when you thought the government was on the right track........

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=42834.new

Ok Meshfan ya got me jabbering now;)

[pete.cook]

Seems like the story of most navies. The Royal Navy used County class destroyers and Leander class frigates into the late 80s, early 90s. Both were designed and built in the 50s and 60s.

[Meshfan]

Wow. That seems pretty late for a navy to upgrade to rifled barrels.

[Chukk]

Just a small update. Added the sonar, and stabs on the hull. That was actually harder then I thought it would be!
Next, work on the quarterdeck to do.

[Archetype]

you need to work on your propellors...

they look like they wont give ani forward thrust

[Spinner]

Yep, more screw, less paddle, for sure.
She's coming along though. Looking good.

[Chukk]

Ya, your right of course. Those screws are hard to figure out because the only view I have is a "face on" view. No side view. Even the scale seemed a little off.

http://www.cornwallismuseum.ca/Exteriorpictures.html

Here is a link for two props. I originally just started with a spline to get the rough shape and then played with "twist" within 3dsmax. Although I could get the proper "twist" I couldn't get the thickness close to the hub right. Love to hear the better way of doing this.

[Chukk]

Those pics only show an old 3 blade prop. They later went to 5 blades. Well played a little with it tonight. Still dont like how the blade attaches to the centre hub, seems too detached.:frown:
hmmm need to play with that some more. TKS for noticing.

[Archetype]

mmm
its better though

dont worry about the intersection
you just need to boost up your polycount a bit
normal props arent made out of one piece either

ill make some screenshots of my props and render them for you tonight " the ones i have on graf zeppelin ?

[pete.cook]

I'd appreciate that too Archetype. One of the reasons my T23 doesn't have props is because I'm still working out how to do them.

Looking good Chukk. Only a few pinches around the bow. The breakwater in front of the gun looks as if its floating on the portside though.

[Spinner]

Chuck,
The three blade props are v shaped in section and aligned along the shaft axis. Outlined as the shape you see, then twisted.
They're very alike my 80ft Elco props, just larger. Mine didnt work untill I got some blueprints that showed the alignment (as I described). Then they looked much better and I "got" the whole screw concept. Quite a bit diff than aircraft props.

The only pic I've seen of the rear of the ship seems to show a phone booth shaped structure to the right of the left ladder up to the helo deck.
http://macsnavylinks.ca/maccdale/206.jpg

Absolute pig of a shape to model at the stern. Glad it wasnt me. LOL

[Archetype]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwvduijn/gz/GZ_13.jpg
wire will be here soon including a threeview + wire
ill also share the reference i have for the KM propellors might teach u a thing or two on how propellors look
im using vray for shading though

[Spinner]

Archetype,
I've been meaning to ask you what the purpose is of the structure under the flight deck lip, the curved section that runs across the end?

[Chukk]

Ok Spinner, your right, that is a phone booth on the quarter deck. It is lowered on the quarterdeck for the duty watchman(usually a master,leading or able seaman) to do his intercomm or external phonecalls while still watching the gangway. Its a rare picture because most of the time the phone booths were reserved for the larger class ships.
That ship had a compartment directly under the flight deck facing aft for this purpose.
Archetype, thanks for the renders. I imidiately saw a difference in how your blades are much more rounded and peddled shaped. I'll tweak it some more.
Pete.Cook, squint your eyes when you look at my pics, finding too many faults. :D I had in mind to still work on the bow some more, hard not to over do it, and yes the breakwater is off a little, when I redid the hull I didn't notice it.(always looking at the side and front view) Had to realign quite a few things missed that.

[Spinner]

Wow, that really is a phone booth!:eek:
:lol:
I think I'll go buy a lottery ticket. My luck's in.

[Archetype]

Archetype,
I've been meaning to ask you what the purpose is of the structure under the flight deck lip, the curved section that runs across the end?


i have NO clue


note that these are KM props.. so they wont look good on your ship ;)

you should try to find more refferences.. but i hope this gives you an idea of how the blades are shaped

the screws showed are those of my gz the reference is that of the bismarck
these differ somewhat too

[Spinner]

I found a half hour in a radio control hobby shop looking at the small brass props for the ships helped big time.

[Chukk]

Now that is excellent reference material. I'll have to do some more digging for that info. Thanks again.

[Archetype]

I found a half hour in a radio control hobby shop looking at the small brass props for the ships helped big time.


my dad models ships aswell
but with plywood etc

i had some good ref props too from him

[Chukk]

Ships screws have been updated. Hope this looks better

[Archetype]

Ships screws have been updated. Hope this looks better


its definatly a step forward
is that bump in the axis supposed to be there ?

[Chukk]

My ref material has that bump on it. Latest update with quarterdeck starting to fill up. Next flag deck and more work on textures.

[pete.cook]

Getting there Chukk!

I think your VDS looks a little basic, I'm sure you can add a bit more detail to it. The Winch could also do with having something on it. The ladder from the flightdeck looks as if it is floating about a foot off the deck. Your Seaking is missing a blade from its rotor too:)

[Chukk]

Pete, you don't miss much! :D Your right,I have quickly gotten frustrated trying to make the VDS cable. I'm ok making the individual segments of the cable It's attaching it to the actual VDS going over the large pivot wheel and then finally through the guide and around the large drum that is the problem. I'm scared to ask, but am I into animation to be able to do that? Ill fix the helo and stairs too. I've included the actual VDS in action and a rough scetch of what the segments of the cable look like.Tks for the help!

[Spinner]

Cant you extrude the cable along a path?
Which software are you useing?

[pete.cook]

That's exactly how I would do it Spinner. IIRC Chukk's using 3DS Max, so it should be pretty straightforward to do.

[Archetype]

if u use 3dmax just draw a spline in the shape u want

then on the settings go to the rendering tab

press show in render/viewport and u can add a thickness to the spline "automatic loft"

this way you can animate the spline.

you could also use a path deform on the other object that need to folow the spline's bend.

the tricky part of this though is getting it right as it does warp/deform your mesh

[Chukk]

Thanks for that. I'll do some experimenting.

[Spinner]

I came across a pic of this ship that really got me thinking about how photorealistic we want to go with naval modelling.
Assuming you had the skills to 3D n texture a hull to show it as this pic shows, would you want to do it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/sulk/saguenay.jpg

All that plate deformation is real, but would you want to put it on your model?

[Archetype]

actualy ive done this kind of thing before on my bismarck and its relativly eeasy to do
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwvduijn/bismarck/wip49.jpg

note the paneling deformation on he superstructure

same principal just larger in size

[Spinner]

So you obviously decided you wanted to have it show all the wear and tear of the active ship.
I 'get' doing that for an action render or similar but I'm not so sure for a display model. I guess its whatever the modeller wants.
I was interested in how others felt about it and I've always particuly liked the rust on your Bismark hull, so I'm torn on it.
I guess if you're modelling it on christening day or twenty years later has a lot to do with the descision.

[Archetype]

the model has the rheinburg paintjob wich was released later on his lifetime..
for this reason i also chose to add rust at places it would obviously taint the paint

"ill also make a tut for how i did the rust soon"

that and it was intended to be a good sized print with some action in it.
just never got to finish it becaue my hdd chrashed

[Spinner]

snip ... becaue my hdd chrashed

Would've been a black day!
It's definately an ephemeral medium to create in.

I look forward to the tute.

[Chukk]

He he, love that pic. I'm almost curtain I am in that picture wearing headphone next to the Petty Officer. Just off the picture to the right is one of the tanker/supply ships. Probably HMCS Protector. The Saguenay is actually very spruced up in that picture. If you would have seen this ship after a "fisheries patrol" around Newfoundland you would be painting a huge about of rust on the textures.
Once I am complete( or what I think is complete) with the model I will hopefully be able to do two textures, new and used. The whole scene is what I'm not sure what to do.

[Chukk]

Well I haven't forgotten the old girl, just took a break. Sadly brought the files over to 3dsmax 9 and a lot of the meshes, turned into a mess! Lost a few of the textures, found a lot of components I didn't like the look of. In other word, I'm start a large portion of the ship over. The good news is, I have learned a few new tricks.(not an old dog yet!) So look forward to finishing her off.

[pete.cook]

Good to see you're still at it Chukk. Looking good. The problem with project like this is that you do end up learning new trick all the time and find yourself going back to look at something in a different light, so you never really end up finishing!

[Chukk]

I have to smile to myself because your statement is so true. I guess the artist that work with oil and canvas are better off, once it's done.... it's done. No ctrl-z for those folks! :)
Still thinking of a proper scene to put my ship in Pete. Any ideas anyone?

[pete.cook]

Depends on what you want to show with your mesh Chukk. I would look at all the publicity photos that the RN (and I guess the RCN) issue every now and then and see which one takes your fancy, especially if it's a single ship scene. Or having experience of serving in one, you know what some of the things you did while at sea, so why not think of something that sticks in your memory of your time on board. I have loads of ideas of images I would like to create with my T23 and T42 meshes, I just need to find the time to finish one!

[Magnus]

Looks very good to me especially the hull is done smoothly. I wished to see more shipmodels brought to life here animated within a sea environment ... A subject of huge complexity as I currently learn with my own project.

[thecomcombremasque]

very nice detail and modeling, wait to see more

[Chukk]

Just a little update. Added some more detail aft. Found a nice image I would like to replicate.
Magnus will be happy because I will have to do some animation to make it look right.
:D
Once I make sure not to infring on copy right issues, I will post the image.

[pete.cook]

Looks very good Chukk. No major crits from me (makes a change eh?).

Look forward to seeing your image, and your animation skills!

[Chukk]

Well no luck with the copyright of the image I would love to show for clarity, therefore I will have to describe it. Your are in a helo flying in front of the ship looking back at it head on. You are at about a 10 to 20 degree angle above the ship and she is doing about 5 knots. The ship's Seaking is flying in a parallel course to the ship and is stationed at the ship's port quarter at about flight deck height slighty behind. I'm confident about doing the water and wake for the ship. The problems I haven't figured out is that the seaking is producing it's own round downdraft wake behind itself. I can only image I will have to use "wind" in a downward fashion under the aircraft pointing down or something like that. Never done this stuff so if there is an easier way, tutorials, let me know please. TKS

Cheers:salute:

[Blackfly]

Looks great. Don't have the Nipigon on your list do you? Crewed her for 3 years. Dove Saguenay.

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/canada/postwar/stlauren/

If she has her gear down, that would be the "Delta Hover Astern"

[John Marchant]

Great model. I was on HMCS Skeena for a bit

[Blackfly]

Question about your model. On page 5 you have the image. You have what appears to be 2 sonar domes.

[Chukk]

Thanks for looking folks, if any of you have pictures of the flag deck I would greatly appreciate it. Stuck there now. :(
As for the two sonar domes, I am going by model plans I have purchased of HMCS Assinaboine. I will upload that so you can see. If I remember correctly a lot of her sister ships had one removed or locked in the down position and sealed up. Not sure which one is which?
I would gladly do the Skeena and Nipigon. As most old "Hairbags" remember almost each and every ship of this class had some kind of modifications done. If you would like my model modified to that ships configuration, you would have to provide all the differences

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/DEY_Chukk_CDN/1k.jpg

Merry Christmas

[Chukk]

Ok haven't put up much for updates lately, so here we go.
Still looking for images of the flag deck. The ones I currently have show a very uncluttered flag deck and fly bridge.
This image was just playing around with lighting and how much more detail would be needed. Note the main gun and a few other details have been fixed since this render. I still need to put in the "stoved in look" of the hull and superstructure exposing the ribs and structure underneath.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/DEY_Chukk_CDN/newrenders2.jpg

[Blackfly]

The Nipigon being part of the Annapolis Class of DDH, specially designed to use the Towed Array Sonar. Most obvious changes between the St Laurent and the Annapolis is the mast and the angled stern vice the VDS well. Your Saguenay could be changed also easy into the HMCS Fraser by changing the stern and the TACAN mast.

http://www.readyayeready.com/ships/shipview.php?id=1287 Nipigon

http://www.readyayeready.com/ships/shipview.php?id=1140 Fraser

I know of a RCN site with lots of pics of the ships. I'll have to find that link again. As for why it would have two sonar domes, no idea. I remember in Nipigon the weapons techs lowering the dome once we got out of harbour.

Some good shots for antenna references.

http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp2/1980s_antennas.html

http://www.rcnofthe60s.com/Galleries/ddh.htm This is the link.

[Chukk]

Thanks for the links Blackfly. I had no idea the amount of changes there was from ship to ship, even within the same class until I started doing some research into this project.

[Blackfly]

Oh you are welcome. Very impressed to see that generation of the RCN/CAF being done. I would love to have that model in game but we are running down in the 20k poly region. We have a CPF done up quickly but still are looking for Iroquois Class and Protecteur Class drawings to build those.

I'll look in my stuff and see if I have my Know Your Ship book still from the Nipigon. It has drawings in it that I might be able to scan for you is you needed them.

[Chukk]

That would be greatly appreciated.
What game are you looking for 20k models? I had actually thought of doing this class in low poly(microsoft flight sim, seaking landings), it would be very hard to decide what to optimize on the finished model to get it down to the 20k mark and still look like a DDH. As you can tell the ship is full of rounded corners, hell on poly count!

[Blackfly]

Rounded corners so the radioactive fallout can wash off easy when the pre-wet was on, or to be able to submerge easy and sneak up on targets. :) That was fav tale to tell to the USN guys back in the day.

The game we are using it for is the Thirdwire series. We are primarily making aircraft but trying to get the odd ship in also.

[Blackfly]

Found the book but no profiles. Just decks.

[Chukk]

Thanks for the effort Blackfly. :salute:

[Blackfly]

No problem. if I see one around, I'll try to get it to you. Maybe Ill look into the Iroquois layout and see what I have there.

[gary20]

Hi Chukk

Curious to ask where you bought your model plans from.
I served on Nipigon in the late 70's and would dearly love to purchase a set of plans for her with a view to doing a model for the FS world.

Would appreciate any guidance

Best wishes

Gary

[Chukk]

Hi Gary
This is the link for the purchase of plans.
http://www.hobcen.com/vanguard/index.htm
Greatly appreciate it if you could keep me abreast of your work. I am also looking to make some models for the new Helo flight sim Black Shark.
Regards

Chukk

[gary20]

Hi Gary
This is the link for the purchase of plans.
http://www.hobcen.com/vanguard/index.htm
Greatly appreciate it if you could keep me abreast of your work. I am also looking to make some models for the new Helo flight sim Black Shark.
Regards

Chukk

Be happy to keep you abreast Chukk

Black Shark looks awesome
I think we have the same expectations for fight sims. I was thinking of modeling an AI model of Nipigonfor FS and doing Sea King landings and takeoffs from her
Alphasim have a descent Sea King with droppable sonar as was used on my ship.

Thanks for the help

Best wishes

Gary

[Blackfly]

Sea King landings in my sim I use isn't the greatest. Poor helo flight model. In MSFS I had guys flying Sea Kings and flying out of Shearwater to a stationary OHP stand in CPF off Chebucto Head. Then I would use the ATC program to do radar controlled approaches for them to it since I used to be a controller.

Top that geekiness...LOL

[pete.cook]

LOL! You guys are more anchor faced than Nelson!

[Chukk]

Hmmm got me thinking some more now! If I make a model of the Bonnie(HMCS Bonaventure) do you think we could find some folks to make some trackers and land on her? Hmmmmmmmm ;) What are the maximum Polys for MSFS?

[gary20]

Hmmm got me thinking some more now! If I make a model of the Bonnie(HMCS Bonaventure) do you think we could find some folks to make some trackers and land on her? Hmmmmmmmm ;) What are the maximum Polys for MSFS?

21845 polys (triangles)
65535 points

FS9 wont compile (MakeMDL) beyond the above limits.

FSX will compile over the above limits (XtoMdl), but I always look to keeping it close.

BTW Chukk - I havent yet recieved a reply from the Hobby Center you referred me to for those HMCS Annapolis plans. Do they normally take a while to respond?

Best

Gary

[Chukk]

Hmm the Hobby Centre is usually quite quick in their response. I could only image that they might still be busy from the Holiday season. Might try giving them a call. Tks for the info about the polys.

[Blackfly]

RAZBAM already has a Banshee out in RCN colors to go with it. Payware, about $25 I think. We might be able to work up a Tracker for it. I know a ex-pilot who flew Trackers off of her who now lives in Yarmouth.

[Chukk]

Well here is the Tracker payware.
http://www.fs2000.org/grumman/index.htm

Looking into "Strike Fighter 2". Be nice if we could fire off some rockets or guns and stuff as well! :0

[Blackfly]

Strike Fighter 2? Do you mean from the Strike Fighters Project 1? That's the series we make our aircraft for.

Your DDH, if you could find a way to cut it down to less than 20k polys, could be put in game with a working gun. I have a CPF in there now but its still in the works. I have drawings that I think we can work up a DDH280 for our game.

[Blackfly]

Gary - Did you get your drawings?

[gary20]

Gary - Did you get your drawings?

Nope - never even had a reply from them.
Sent several emails now.

I was going to phone, but just got busy and sidetracked.

[techcoast]

Hello fellow ship enthusiasts!

I am with a company that is creating a free scuba diving simulator for your computer! At the moment, we are working on sunken (or soon to be sunk) ships all over the world. But we need help!! My current project is the USS Annapolis, but all I have is a set of 3/4 view orthographic plans.. not very good for being accurate!

If you have any information, or know where i could find this information, I'd be very grateful! We can even put your name(s) in our credits list for contributing. We also welcome commentary and critiques of our current work and future work. Along with the Annapolis, we have already released versions of the Yukon (San Diego, CA), the Spiegel Grove (Keys, Fl), and the C-53 (Cozumel Mx)! We are adding new sites to our database all the time and of course welcome ideas and suggestions. Again, thank you in advance for any help!

[Blackfly]

Hey Gary, any luck with your drawings?

[gary20]

Hey Gary, any luck with your drawings?

No

I gave up.

[safie]

Hi Chuck,

Good work Chuck. I'm quite interested in getting a Frigate model. Are you able to construct one for me. Hey, I don't paying for it.

[Blackfly]

What are you working on now Gary? Anything?

[gary20]

What are you working on now Gary? Anything?

Horsa Glider for FSX
Just wrestling with the animations for the cockpit controls.
Very much a WIP at this point.

But I think we may be in danger of stealing this thread and I'm hugely interested in the progress of the Saguenay.

Gary

[Chukk]

Ok, I better post something before the big hijack! ;) Added some signal lamps, flag box and worked a bit on the mast. Still need to add compass platform, plot table and the lexan/plexi glass shields all around there. Don't mind the lighting, just put out a quick render.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/DEY_Chukk_CDN/Flagdeck-1.jpg

[pete.cook]

Looks good Chukk, nice to see a close in shot so we can appreciate just how much detail goes into building a model like this.

Gary: You could always start your own thread. It might be for a game, but it's still 3D military modelling, and I for one would be interested to see how you do it.

[Panzer Bob]

Bravo Zulu, Love seeing Canadian Equipment, And Naval Units in particular being a retired Hairy Bag.

Ready Aye Ready Bob

[Chukk]

Well the old girl is not forgotten, just got frustrated with 3dsmax crashing every time I loaded her up. Seems this is a common occurrence for very large model sizes. After exporting, then merging, the errors in the model literally stuck out. So all fixed up and some more details added and trying some renders. As you can tell, I need a lot more work with rendering! :( Oh well.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i63/DEY_Chukk_CDN/Warships/Sag1.jpg


Cheers

[dawestsides]

Excellent,but as you said you can still push it forward.

[simyevil]

great details by the ship but the textures it need more work ok

[ZeKe]

"BZ" :salute: