Software advice?

[Spinner]

I've been a good boy and Mrs Spinner has decided its appropriate I should be rewarded shortly as the occasion marking my birth approaches.
It seems my meager modelling skills may be reinforced by the addition of the software package of my choice. (I've been a very good boy);)
Both XSI and Modo201 seem highly attractive but I've little insight and the more I explore their relative sites, features and followers the more lost I become.
Cant have both.:(
Frivolity aside, either are a significant purchase and a long term comitment as Mrs Spinner is not known to attain this mood very often.
I'm hoping for some insight and advice from your experience as most of you have far more than me.
I've enjoyed a short look at a friend's Lightwave but have left LW9 out of the running as it appears to offer little beyond 3D max which I have.
Likelyhood of futur development and support weighs heavily alongside current features and is one reason LW doesnt make my cut. However I may be completely off base there, I simply dont know enough myself.
Since I cant have a six month trial of both I'm left with begging your thoughts and experience.
Please?

[kevjon]

How come you want to change from Max ? Seems you already have a powerful 3D application with one of the best modelling tools around.

[giant551]

Well i recently went through the same thing as you not so long back:D basically i needed a commercial licence for home which didn't mean remorgaging the house or selling one of the kids which basically mean't Max and maya where out of the question.

I eventually plumped for XSi and ive been over the moon with it !!!! But seriously i got the foundation version which unless your a hardcore character modeller you just don't need the more expensive versions. I found it a little qwerky at first getting used to the interface and controls but once you get around the fundementals you will realise that its a real intuative and a dream to use. The foundation version is just £300 and has just as much power and functionality as a lot of other so called high end products.

The down side for XSI has been the lack of support, things like tutorials i have found that alot of XSI users tend to keep alot of stuff close to there chests:D The tutorials available tend to be very old and mostly character stuff but if you have a background in Max you know the fundementals anyhow (unlike me who came from rhino:eek: :eek: ) And of course if you fancy giving it a go i will pass on the stuff ive come accros:D

The upside is that i really believe XSI is a up and coming product with alot of users coming accross from other applications mainly due to the fact that the cheap foundation version is available.

I can't say its for everyone but its worked so far for me. The months trial will give you enought time to become hooked :)

I hope it helps

[kevjon]

Recently looked into pricing of XSI foundation, it is $810 aussie dollars here. Very cheap compared to $5500 for Max.

[Spinner]

Kevjon,
You're correct in that I'm a long way from plumbing the depths of max yet. Its a case that I'm going to recieve a gift, that obviously (well, obvious to married guys) I'm paying for out of "our" money. I'd rather some cool software than new socks and she's going to get a lift out of giving me something she nows I'll enjoy. But yeah, I dont 'need' either XSI or Modo.

Giant,
Thanks it does help to get a new users view of their experience.
XSI's pricing isnt lost on me. $800Aust. for the foundation is a very aggressive price point and quite appealing.
From what I read both programs seem to have made gains with import export an area thats been very frustrating for me to date. I noted your success in that area recently.
Modo will cost me about $1200Aust which is a bit more but still not beyond reason.
Is there any particular function you've found in Foundation that really rings your bell, so to speak. A discovery you wouldnt want to be without in the future


All,
I hope its understood this is a genuine approach for personal advice? I have no desire to argue which is better, just move closer to which I might prefer.
Can anyone comment on their Modo experience?

[giant551]

Giant,
Thanks it does help to get a new users view of their experience.
XSI's pricing isnt lost on me. $800Aust. for the foundation is a very aggressive price point and quite appealing.
From what I read both programs seem to have made gains with import export an area thats been very frustrating for me to date. I noted your success in that area recently.
Modo will cost me about $1200Aust which is a bit more but still not beyond reason.
Is there any particular function you've found in Foundation that really rings your bell, so to speak. A discovery you wouldnt want to be without in the future



To be honest with you i think render region is fantastic and also XSi history function is really good. I also am pretty impressed with the import export although not fully without its glitches my P47 was exported out of XSI as OBJ into UV mapper then back into XSI.

Before everybody goes "why didn't you UV map it in XSI" well to be honest with you i find the uv mapping in polymodelling programs a little bit of a ordeal, i can fully map and produce the templates for photoshop in literaly 20 mins in UV mapper (a fantasic little piece of software:D :D )

[kiwi123]

I think the best way to make a decision is to download the trial version for both.

I could start saying modo is the best, but I guess it's all down to how you like to work. (it is very good though :lol:)

[Spinner]

Kiwi,
Well you certainly make it sing but I'm not at your level, (yet).
The trial seems a good idea.
Skimming the forum over there gives me the picture Modo has a strong future dev path.Logic says to compare the trials but maybe they're both great in different ways and I'll always want both after trying them.;)
Reading the XSI pdf's has helped get a handle on it. Very appealing, I must say.
If Modo didnt exist it'd be a no-brainer but it does exist. We've an embarrassment of riches. Quite amazing for what has to be a bit of a niche area.
Maybe I'll try to make a test object in each trial. A rope hawser seems a challenge at my current ability.

[Spinner]

Unfortunately the Modo trial is currently unavailable.
Their initial delivery of what is a very large program by download is currently taking all the available bandwidth on their servers. So they've discontinued downloading trials for a while.
XSI is inching ahead in my private little race.

[kiwi123]

Ah yes, I just read about that same thing on the forums, hold on for a couple of weeks and a demo will be available. To be honest, you can't go wrong either way. XSI is great as well for different reasons. It is a more mature render package, has animation and dynamics, nurbs, particles etc.
I guess the edge that modo has over XSI right now is the enormously powerful modelling workflow and maybe more so the powerful texture painting. (but XSI is good for modelling also)

[Spinner]

I guess the edge that modo has over XSI right now is the enormously powerful modelling workflow and maybe more so the powerful texture painting.

:lol: There's a sentence to grab a modeller's attention!
I'd noted your texture trial on the Spit nose already. I'm beginning to develop a plan to be a very good boy this time next year too. By then I might justify both.
The birthday is still a month off, so with luck I'll possably fit a week or two of Modo trial in.
To date I have to say there looks to be a step forward with the two programs, virtualy a next generation emerging.

[kiwi123]

Yes, very true. XSI and Modo are both next gen software. Feels like max hasn't really progressed in the last 5 years, same for LW and maya. I guess the LW and Max people should be happy for the great plugins that have been developed (Brasil, Fprime, etc).

[Spinner]

Just found XSI5.0 for $399US from safe harbour. Thats only $537 Aust.
If I can confirm my belief that the upgrade to 5.1 would be free and straightforward I guess I'm sold.
It'd leave a couple of hundred to allocate towards Modo later on or is my wife's feminen shopping logic starting to rub off on me?

[kiwi123]

Hehehe... I thought that XSI essentials wasn't upgradable ?

[Faust]

Can't go wrong with Lightwave (sorry Max users).:D

[Spinner]

There seems to be a go with the 0.1 patches where they're offered but the 1.0 are definately not. If you licensed 4. or 5. thats what you bought. If 6. is released its a whole 'nother license. Also the individual has the license so its not transferable which meens no reselling.
I guess their position is its a case of that being a great deal for the price and that's sufficient. Whether their hobbyist customers agree is something else.
I do know that I'd be as likely to be content with my earlyier version and consider another program than purchase a second version and license unless 6. was a larger step than the 4. to 5. iteration seems to have been. If I did buy a later full iteration as well I'd tend to think it basicly unfair that I couldnt transfer the earlier stand alone program to my nephew or similar.
That whole issue of aligning the future with a software stream or not is facter in wanting to explore Modo before making a final choice.
Both companies appear to have difficulty with providing generous server capacity for customer downloads. XSI proffers a 412MB tutorial download that was a nightmare to gather over the weekend and Modo has the current restriction. I am surprised by both and guess there's more to their economics than I totally grasp.

[kiwi123]

Well, the downloads for modo are actually very big, but fast. They also have a policy of making everything available as bit torrents, which helps spread the load. Luxology has always been very easy going with their trial policy, basically allowing people to keep renewing their trial license for 103. Don't know if they will continue that policy, but it would surprise me if they would end up being bastards about it. They have always been very customer oriented, also in the old lightwave days.

[Spinner]

Yeah, I noticed, reading the fora, that Luxology seem fairly decent guys.
Reading for others' experience, discoveries etc, I find Giant and you there before me in the software specific fora.
Giant has a habit of returning and posting the answers to his own earlier questions thats really helpfull. He unearthed an aproach to background refs that's in the 'obvious but why didn't I think of that' category, taking ref textured plains one step further.
Final Reference (http://www.joncrow.com/tutorials/xsi_tuts/rotoscope_technique/final_reference_movie.avi)
I'm certainly learning from the whole exercise.

[Spinner]

In case any newcomer to XSI ever follows this thread and gets into the Final Reference tutorial method of using realtime shading and alpha channels on their reference drawings, I'll add this update.
The tutorial was filmed useing a pre 5.01 version of Foundation that has a diferent menu setup. It's not a huge prob but for someone new to the software an un-necessary hassle, as there's been a short tute done in response to the new menu.
Transparent Image Planes in XSI 5.01 (http://www.3d-palace.com/index.php?option=com_forum&page=viewtopic&t=3660&start=0&sid=d4a5a062da0fd14e9e7cc64e4eebbeb4)
It really is the coolest way of useing cross-sections and should be do-able in Modo or any software with realtime shading.

[Spinner]

Well I'm very happy with Foundation and getting to grips with it now.
I had to choose before the Modo trial was rereleased and love xsi but couldnt resist taking a belated peek at modo.
It's becoming clearer why its 'the modeller of choice'.
I just watched the SIGGRAPH 06 vid of Rich Hurrey, Pixar's hard surface maestro, cutting a circle into a curved surface subD style.
Talk about a 'eureka' moment!
I definately don't need this program, but oh wow, how I want it.


http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/ vid download in RH column.

[jmoores]

My vote would be for modo. It's very powerful, relatively inexpensive, has great support, and you can download it for free now and try for a month.
And yes, the modo guys are very laid back and helpful.
Good luck with whatever you go with!
jm

[Skyraider3D]

I went through the effort of downloading that huge Modo video expecting some kind of revelation in making holes in SubD meshes... Am I disappointed. That must be the most time consuming, inaccurate and downright clumsy way of making a hole in a uniformly curved surface.

In MAX:
- have your curved surface (Plane + Bend or a section of a Cylinder)
- make Cylinder, delete all faces but top
- connect vertices so you can bend it (this is much faster than shown in Modo)
- apply Bend modifier and align with curved surface
- snap vertices (rather than align by eye in two steps)
- delete inner polygons
- chamfer border
- add Shell modifier
- add Meshsmooth

That will take you about 10% of the time as what was shown in that video plus it will be 100% accurate.
I really can't believe they're trying to sell Modo with videos like this... That just looks so tedious, inaccurate and time consuming!!! :lol:
He got the main idea though, but isn't that the way everybody does this?

[kiwi123]

Well, to be honest, I was a bit surprised watching that video as well. If I had to model like that I would probably find another hobby / job. What you describe above is exactly how you could do it in modo as well. Except for the clumsy shell modifier and meshsmooth malarky. Just hit tab.

But then again, I think you are missing the point of what he is doing skyraider, he is not just aligning in two steps, he is sliding the points over edges (which you can do with another specific tool. He's just doing it the hard way.) this way he makes sure the surface curvature is maintained. In a double curved surface just bending it wouldn't be accurate.

That is why I use a different method, I use a projection boolean to cut out the circle, merge points, and done, even faster.

[roshent]

To be honest, I downloaded that video as well, all three actually, and frankly even though everyone is so pent up about it, I can't see anything new that I haven't seen in other packages. It's great they have an UI that is customizable, but so do most of the competiting apps. But I haven't seen the tools that make this app as some claim a next generation program. Actually when I watched these video's I found the workflow really cumbersome, especially on the punch a hole one.
I wanted to download the demo and check it out, but these vid's made me not install it yet until I have some more time to play with it.

[kiwi123]

Well, I do believe Modo is the best modelling software out there at the moment. It's not just about other software having the same featurelists, it's how those features are implemented. Time and again you see for instance Maya, LW and Max coming out with new big featurelists, most of those features are broken or just badly implemented.

But that's just my 2 cents

[Skyraider3D]

I still gotto try out XSI one day as that looked really good. I'm too stuck in MAX to change (no time to learn anything new) but I've given Lightwave and Modo a try and really dislike them. I tried Blender many years ago and couldn't get past the interface. I tried TrueSpace 2 and had a good laugh (and uninstalled it outright as it was useless). I used Maya professionally for awhile and found myself finding workarounds around workarounds - and generally disliked it though it had some good features here and there.

But it's not all bad. I have had a short practise with Cinema 4D and really liked it. I also tried Rhino and though generally I liked it, the workflow with NURBS was a bit too alien to me. Also it seemed to lack easily accessible dimensional data, which as a modeller of technical stuff is very important to me. I'm by no means discarding it though and look forward to see what the new version will bring.

[roshent]

That was exactly the thing that turned me off in that video Kiwi, in order to see a seasoned (I guess) modeller create a simple plane using about four dropdownlists all over the GUI to get some polygons in it not to mention the rest of his process. Was the video not showing the thruth in that respect? I wonder what advanced tasks are needed to get some more complicated surfaces. Maybe the video was not suitable to show off the modelling tools ?

It's off course always a personal thing, but I'm in general a multi program user. I use different software for specific tasks. I'm really into Rhino, although haven't shown anything in it here. Especially for technical stuff it's great for dimensions, kinda puzzled you couldn't figure it out. The new Rhino 4 gives some extra info in that respect while modelling (under your mousecursor) I'm using Cinema4D for the CW21B mostly cause I thought it had a workflow that suited me (it does). I had no modelling experience to speak off in that program, apart from rendering Rhino stuff in it.

[pccdtk]

I also tried Rhino and though generally I liked it, the workflow with NURBS was a bit too alien to me. Also it seemed to lack easily accessible dimensional data, which as a modeller of technical stuff is very important to me. I'm by no means discarding it though and look forward to see what the new version will bring.

....Why Ronnie ?!!! I make Vuia 1 model at scale 1:1 . Every piece ( for I have drawings with dimension ) is prepared for technical execution drawing...I have pieces which follow ( more or less ) geometric primitives , but olso pieces with exact radius , blend curves ...etc....

....More or less you can input some values related at CPlanes coordinate or selecting specific point ( suitable with your needs and/or snap points ) from keyboard .....

[kevjon]

Yep Rhino is the most precise program of all the 3D apps. In fact hundreds of commands are the same as Autocad.

You would really be able to put those factory drawings of yours to good use with Rhino. Just a matter of coming to grips with modelling in the package and using nurbs.....its benefits and limitations.

[Skyraider3D]

Yes, yes, everybody keeps telling me that Rhino is so accurate etc. and I believe you all. But nobody has been able to tell me how to get these dimensions easily displayed. All I get for an answer is "place a point and get the coordinates" etc... I don't want to place a point if my object is right there I want to be able to read its coordinates straight away :D
Any such thing as the equivalent of MAX's "F12" in Rhino? A simply coordinate overview?

[roshent]

Yup, F3 , and underneath the program window is the current position of your cursor. In v4 you'll get that last info and the coordinates Rhino thinks you are going to click on underneath your cursor. Same as in other programs like (Google) Skethcup.

[pccdtk]

Yes, yes, everybody keeps telling me that Rhino is so accurate etc. and I believe you all. But nobody has been able to tell me how to get these dimensions easily displayed. All I get for an answer is "place a point and get the coordinates" etc... I don't want to place a point if my object is right there I want to be able to read its coordinates straight away :D

....How about object properties and bounding box ?!!!


Any such thing as the equivalent of MAX's "F12" in Rhino? A simply coordinate overview?

....I'm quite sure that can be programed with a script....

[Skyraider3D]

Cheers guys, I'll have another look at it :)
I'm just amazed by the progress some of you Rhino modellers make in only a few hours.

[kiwi123]

Forget it Ronnie, you're stuck with max for ever and ever :lol: