U.S. Brig Niagara

[timmcmurdo]

I am excited to find this community. I have modelled wooden ships for many years and decided to start modelling them in 3D. I have not been using a traditional 3D program until recently. These images are of my U.S. Brig Niagara project. I began it a while back as a means of learning to model. I have been using POV-Ray for most of the work in these images. Just recently, I started using LightWave for the stern boat. All other parts are modelled with POV-Ray and have proceedural textures (They are not blotchy with proper lighting).

Unfortunately, the first thing I modelled was the hull...and it is completely wrong. After Modelling the ships boat in LightWave, I have started re-modelling the hull in LightWave as well (not shown yet). After re-working the hull, I plan on returning to the rigging.

I have placed the images in chronological order.

Please be gentle...I am far from proficient.

Tim

[krazycolin]

well.. you might not be "proficient" but you are pretty good and certainly could do better than "gentle"...

[kevjon]

Very good, I really like the look of the old sailing ships. Looks to me like you've got the hang of modelling and texturing.

[FitArtistSF]

As someone who is also learning 3D and modeling virtual sailing ship's, I recommend you look at this site, which has been discussed here on MM recently: www.freeship.org.
It is a site dedicated to actual real hull designing and construction, but can be used in 3D as well. I have been experimenting with it and am getting better results on my hull than with other programs. The program can take a simple profile, bow and top ship's plan and interpolate it into any hull, from an 18th century warship, to a rowboat, to a catamaran, to a modern tanker. Check it out, it might help with your USS Niagara....

[timmcmurdo]

Thank you for your positive comments and feedback.

Free!Ship is a program I discovered 2 weeks ago and used for the initial hull modelling on the ships boat. I then brought it into Lightwave to finish it off. I also love the program and am currently working on the hull of the Niagara using the same program. I have the quarter boat hulls (I believe they are cutters) also finished in Free!Ship but have not ported them over to light wave yet for completion.

The original hull shown in these images is a series of bicubic patches assembled by hand. Using Free!Ship is much faster and accurate. It is nice to see that this community has discovered such a useful piece of software as well.

Where I have struggled the most is in the area of textures. POV-Ray does not use poly's in its scripting language (though they can be imported). This means that for objects created in POV-Ray, UV mapping is virtually unknown. So...I am forced to learn to crete appropriate proceedural textures.

Attached are soem images showing textures in progress. The first shows the rudder and stern post. I have been trying to nail down a texture showing growth and fouling on the hull. I am getting closer.

The second image shows work onthe Spanker Boom & trying to apply a rope like texture on the coils of rope. This texture needs a lot of work & I am wondering if I would be better off modelling the coils in lIghtWave.

The third image shows work on planks & in the area of painted wood, and rusty paint I seem to have the most success.

Tim

[timmcmurdo]

Here is an update showing work on the new hull. The colors are there just to help me see the lines of the hull. Still some work to go.

[Dann-O]

Is this the same Niagra from the battle of Lake Erie the one on the public dock in Erie PA? I have been on it before a long time ago. I live nowhere near it now but I grew up there.

[timmcmurdo]

Yes it is the same Niagara that is docked in Erie PA. I am planning on visiting it this autum, camera in hand.

[Spinner]

That should get you some good textures!

[timmcmurdo]

WIP Update for this weekend. Work is well along on the new hull created in Free!Ship/Lightwave. The old version of the hull had a flat deck. Pretty easy to model and place objects on, but not even remotely accurate. I created this version using the drawings I ordered form the museum in Erie PA.

To place the objects on the curved deck, I brought the model into Pov-Ray and used a macro that traces the surface of the deck and aligns the objects with the decks surface normal.

I also created a version of this image with a plane placed at the water line. Not much distance between the water and the gun port openings! This was definitely a fresh water ship and not ocean going.

Tim

[Spinner]

Freeship has a waterline / displacement option thats handy for seeing that interplay. Heel her over a tad and see whats what, maybe interesting.
Yeah modelling wooden decks can be almost as involved as the hulls. I'm doing one atm, thats strongly convex with an S curve stem to stern.
Povray master eh? Well done, I'm too slack, it makes my brain hurt.

[Dann-O]

Good to see soem progress on it. I thas been a while sice I have seen it. Next tiem I go back to Erie I'll visit it. Great work.

[timmcmurdo]

Time for my weekly (almost) update.

First off, thanks for the positive comments. Nothing like a little positive motivation.

I decided to take a break from the hull and spend some time aloft in the rigging. I reworked a macro that automatically creates the rigging for me. This is one of the strengths of Pov-Ray, its build in scripting language. Some tweaking to go, but I am beginning to like the results.

The macro takes some input from variables like the endpoints of the ropes, diameter, block size, configuration of the rigging, etc....and automatically constructs the rigging.

One of the drawbacks of Pov-Ray is that it takes quite a while to create a high quality rendering. The image of the main top sail took approximately 11 hours to render.

The sail cloth uses a mechanics simulation in a patched version of Pov-Ray to generate a mesh. Unfortunately, POV-Ray does not handle uv mapping very well. Is anybody aware of a program that can take a list of points and generate an obj file I could then inport into another uv mapping program?

C & C always welcome.

Tim

[FitArtistSF]

Looking really good, Timmc',
Don't forget that the sails were sown in strips, about 3-5ft wide, with seams that overlapped, not one large ream of clothe. And the edges were re-enforced. You can see this in actual pictures of the Niagara, Constitution(during her '97 anniversary solo sail), and even numerous still shots of HMS Rose/Surprise during her filming of M&C:FSOTW, and now as a tourist attraction in San Diego. You might even consider making a sail texture with repair patches in different shapes and sizes and discolorations. Also, salt stains...
Anyway everything looks like it is coming together..... ;)

[timmcmurdo]

Ugh! Correcting the shape and size of the hull was the right thing to do, but now all of the rigging, the shrouds and any hardware attaching directly to the hull are in the wrong position. Lots of work to do, just getting back to where I was. If I am not posting much now, its because of all of the rework.

I have always used proceedural textures in the past, but I think that with the new poly hull, I am going to have to go with uv mapping...something completely new to me. You can see problems with the proceedural textures on the edge of the rail and edge of the planks making up the deck houses and skylights. Does anybody have a favorite resources on learning to uv map?

Along those same lines. I am using a very old (6.5) version of lightwave for my poly modelling. I would like to replace it with a full featured program under $1,000 US. One that has modern features. Can anybody recommend one that they are using and are happy with?

I am using an AMD 64 bit dual core machine with 2Gb of RAM if that helps.

As always, thanks for your comments, great criticism and help,

Tim

[Ryan3078]

would you mind emailing me the file in 3ds when you are done?

i belong to the Society for the Preservation of Ohio History. We're a bunch of high school students who film documentaries. Soon we are going to film the Battle of Lake Erie, and a 3ds file of this ship would be perfect for the CG video portion.

[Spinner]

Tim,
I'd say its hard to go past XSI Foundation for features and value for money. That said, Modo makes my heart sing and puts the fun back into modelling. Both have a time limited trial, so you can check them out for yourself. I can't pass an informed opinion on the other contenders.

[timmcmurdo]

While repositioning the shrouds, I decided that they really needed an overhaul. This is a WIP, as the lanyards and the area of the shroud just above the upper deadeye really needs work. At this stage, the proceedural textures continue to be pretty experimental.

Just keeping you up to date.

Concerning the request for the model. I would gladly let you have it if it were done and if it were possible to export the model from POV-Ray. Unfortunately, neither is true. I can provide still images of the completed portions, if those would be helpful to you.

Tim

[krazycolin]

it's so rare to see something like this... (at least for me)... very nicely done... though your rope texture could be a little bit better... it's gonna be really nice when done.

[Skyraider3D]

Fantastic detail!
Welcome to the Header! :cool:

[kiwi123]

Yes indeed, keep it going !!

[timmcmurdo]

I got a header! Who would have thunk it?

Thank you very much, I'm really surprised with all of the fantastic work I see here every day.

Tim

[timmcmurdo]

I just bought Modo 202 & am going to attempt to learn to model with polies for the first time. I have an old version of Lightwave 6.5 that I tinkered with a little bit, but have not really done polies. I will start small with one of the ships boats. i'll keep you posted. Mean while, any advice would be helpful........like where to start?

Tim

[Spinner]

I'd start with the solid modeling tutes in modo help and a read of This (http://www.munkmotion.com/tutorials/nsx/1a.htm) car tute's chapter2 section if you haven't got your head around subD poly modeling yet.
If I was into rigging 'n' ropes to your extent, I'd spend an hour playing with the tube primitive, first, for the pure joy of it. lol. Then I'd download the Quick Pipe clip (http://content.luxology.com/modo/201/video/QuickPipe.mov.zip) as the first of the many .mov clips on modo's features, scripts etc.
Cheers

[timmcmurdo]

I have finally gotten around to putting some time into Modo 202. here is my first attempt at the Niagara's yawl. Just working on the basic hull at the moment.

I decided that I would like to model the overlaping planks in the hull. Where I struggle is in how to keep some edges crisp while using Sub-D. A steep learning curve, trying to get the hang of modeling with Polies and Sub-D, but very interesting.

Tim

[Archetype]

adding denser a mesh will make your corners sharper generaly..
can ben done with cut tools or chamfer tools

other way is too weight down the edge so subd doesnt "pull" it that much

[Martocticvs]

I can't believe I haven't commented on this one before now... Great job so far! The attention to detail, particularly in the rigging, is very nice to see.

Also it's good to see a clinker planked boat being modelled - most people cheat and make them carvel instead (although usually only the smallest boats were clinker built). Looking forward to seeing this progress.

[timmcmurdo]

Had a better time of it the last douple of days I have been able to put a few hours in. Thanks for the positive comments.

Archetype, your tips did the trick I seem to have rounded a corner...properly this time!

I finished the transom, added a keel and have begun work on the internal ribs.

Thanks everybody.

Tim

[Spinner]

Looking clean, Tim.
You seem to be making good progress.

[timmcmurdo]

A lot of cleaning up today. As well as finishing the internal ribs, knees and thwarts.

Anybody have a reference for pintels, gudgeons and other hardware appropriate for a ships boat in 1813?

Tim

[Skyraider3D]

Very nice work!

[Martocticvs]

Absolutely - its looking very good. I'll have a look in some books later on and see if I have anything about the rudder gear of the small boats... its quite possible. If I have I'll get it scanned up over the next few days for you.

[timmcmurdo]

Thank you everybody for your comments. I appreciate all of them.

Today's progress: New rail, thole pins, rudder & tiller and floor boards.

I have reached the extent of my current plans. Time for some serious research and my imagination.

Tim

[timmcmurdo]

SO far this weekend. I decided that the rail was too heavy, so I made it thinner and added a beaded moulding underneath per the plans. I also did a little research and added the pintels and gudgeons for the rudder.

Tim

[Spinner]

Had a look through 'Arming and fitting of english ships of war 1600-1815' to see if there was much to help. It has a good detailed section on the ships boats but nothing much you haven't covered in the model. Maybe a windlass and mast step?
Also the UK practice was to fit the tiller into a hole, rather than have the hole (loop) in the tiller as you have. Still, the US would probably do the opposite to what ever the RN did about then! lol

[timmcmurdo]

Spinner - I have seen plans and photos showing both designs, even on the British boats. I do agree though, a typical Yankee would have said the sun set in the east if the Brits said it set in the west.

This update, pretty much a research week. I did manage to get the oars completed. I also ordered plans from the US Dept. of the Navy for the USS Constitution. Several sheets of plans will cover the ships boats & perhaps the Constitution could be next.

On this project though, I will increase the size of the knees supporting the thwarts (seats) and add a support underneath. I will also continue researching equipment such as the mast steps, and rigging.

Tim

[timmcmurdo]

Increased the size of the knees, added thwart supports as planned. I also raised and broadened the floor boards, added a boat hook and a water cask.

as far as other hardware, I think I should add a box for ships biscuit, a bucket and bailer as well as coiled ropes and lifting eyes used to attach the block and tackle for lifting the boat. I'm not sure I could do much more until I get the plans I ordered.

As far as coiled ropes, In Modo 202, does anybody know how to create coiled ropes?

Tim

[Skyraider3D]

You're putting as much detail in the row boat as in the entire ship!! :)

[Martocticvs]

Is there any sweep tool in modo? Draw out the profile of the rope, then sweep it along a guide spline...

[timmcmurdo]

Is there any sweep tool in modo? Draw out the profile of the rope, then sweep it along a guide spline...

From the Luxology forums and the user's guide, I am getting the impression that Modo's spline/lofting functionality is pretty primative still. For instance, I can not define the cross section of my rope and have it loft and rotate along the length of the spline (while setting the increments along the length of the spline) to form a rope.

For now, I think I will have to find a way to model what I need outside of Modo and then import it.

SkyRaider - I hope tp be able to put this level of detail into the entire ship. Also, this boat is my learning project for Modo.

Thanks to everybody for your comments.

Tim

[falcon012]

Looking excellent Tim!

[Spinner]

Pipey and textures is one modo possibility. You know the modo logo tool? Pipey is a script based on that.
There's probably better way but I make my ropes in xsi or MoI then import them, as my old box has issues with some of modo's more complex tool pipe combos. It hates radial array. Which is a pity as otherwise it'd be a possible rope contender.
Can't wait to finish building the new box. Not long now.
Cheers

[robert]

In searching the web I found this thread....I love the detail of the work I have seen here. Although I build static wood models the pics here are interesting. I have included a few pictures of my project and the real Brig, they are not the best pic's but they have been through alot. I sailed on the real Brig last July....

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/RobertM_bucket/c12.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/RobertM_bucket/Summer2005236.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/RobertM_bucket/Niagara1-17-07012.jpg

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/RobertM_bucket/Niagara003.jpg

[timmcmurdo]

In searching the web I found this thread....I love the detail of the work I have seen here. Although I build static wood models the pics here are interesting. I have included a few pictures of my project and the real Brig, they are not the best pic's but they have been through alot. I sailed on the real Brig last July....



Robert,

I recognized your model right away. I became interested in the Niagara when I started building the same model. Your handiwork is turning out to be much better and farther along than mine..hence my interest in building her as a 3D model. Great work on your part.

Erie is only about a half a day's drive from here. I am hoping to go see her in the spring, just before she starts the summer sailing season. You can be sure that I will have my camera in hand. I also ordered the ships plans from the Erie Maritime Museum...they have been a huge help. Thanks for your comments.

Tim

[robert]

I'll have to make pic's a bit smaller next time :) But the one with her in full sail on the lake does look sweet.....

I've been working on the model for quite some time but I should have her done, with sails, in a few months....I may see if I can enter it in the State Fair...it will be extremely detailed and done to mimic her during the battle....

[timmcmurdo]

No updates to show this week...crazy real life interferes far too much!

The great news it that the CD of drawings fromt he US Dept of the Navy arrived with the engineering drawings of the USS Constitution. There are hundreds of drawings in total from the 1930 and 1993 refits. For my imediate need however, there are many showing all of the ships boats and associated hardware.

Attached is a a portion of one of the drawings showing the pintles and gudgeons on one of the ships boats. This is pretty typical of the drawing quality throughout.

Keep these in mind if anybody needs reference information.

Tim

[Spinner]

Wow!
You couldn't ask for much better than that.

[timmcmurdo]

Most of my day was spent pouring over the new drawings and identifying parts that could be used in my project. I did have time to rework the thwart supports, add cleats for future rigging and add the foot braces (name escapes me at the moment) on the floor boards.

I have identified the fact that my rudder and associated hardware will have to be reworked as well. There is nothing like correct information to change wrong assumptions..but, I was warned about the meaning of assumption!

Tim

[timmcmurdo]

It seems that Real Life took over, but I am back on track now. I finished this 24PD long gun this weekend. The hardest part was figuring out how to integrate the trunnions into the barrel mesh. I am not completely pleased with the results, but it worked.

Carronade is next.

Tim

[Magnus]

Thank you for your positive comments and feedback.

Free!Ship is a program I discovered 2 weeks ago and used for the initial hull modelling on the ships boat. I then brought it into Lightwave to finish it off. I also love the program and am currently working on the hull of the Niagara using the same program. I have the quarter boat hulls (I believe they are cutters) also finished in Free!Ship but have not ported them over to light wave yet for completion.

The original hull shown in these images is a series of bicubic patches assembled by hand. Using Free!Ship is much faster and accurate. It is nice to see that this community has discovered such a useful piece of software as well.

Where I have struggled the most is in the area of textures. POV-Ray does not use poly's in its scripting language (though they can be imported). This means that for objects created in POV-Ray, UV mapping is virtually unknown. So...I am forced to learn to crete appropriate proceedural textures.

Attached are soem images showing textures in progress. The first shows the rudder and stern post. I have been trying to nail down a texture showing growth and fouling on the hull. I am getting closer.

The second image shows work onthe Spanker Boom & trying to apply a rope like texture on the coils of rope. This texture needs a lot of work & I am wondering if I would be better off modelling the coils in lIghtWave.

The third image shows work on planks & in the area of painted wood, and rusty paint I seem to have the most success.

Tim

Hi,

from what I take from the pictures you did an excellent job with the painted wood. I appreciated if you described the procedure ...

Kinds Rgds,

Stefan

... Coming back to my reply, just recognized that this thread is pretty old. I were glad If I had recognized this earlier ... magnificient attention to detail especially the wood textures, ropes and blocs !!

[timmcmurdo]

Stefan,

POV RAY modelling and texturing is completed by writing scripts in the Scene Description Language (SDL).

To create the weathered wood textures, I layered several textures. I started by defining the pigments and textures for each layer. I then wrapped the layers into a macro that allows me to assign values to variables that control parameters such as wear on horizontal and vertical surfaces as well as the corners. I can also control the pigment, the surface normal, scale, rotation and translation.

The base layer is a simple light colored wood pattern.

I then place the paint layer on top of the base wood texture. Where the macro determines there is wear, the wood texture shows through the painted layer. The macro knows if it is texturing a vertical, horizontal or corner based on the surface normal of the object.

If you are interested in the code or a better explanation, I would be happy to post the code as well as more samples. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your interest,


Tim

[deltacharlie]

Looks good!

I used to live in Ohio and used to also used to use POV-Ray! Where in Ohio are you? I lived near Cleveland and went to the U of Akron.

~DC

[Magnus]

Stefan,

POV RAY modelling and texturing is completed by writing scripts in the Scene Description Language (SDL).

To create the weathered wood textures, I layered several textures. I started by defining the pigments and textures for each layer. I then wrapped the layers into a macro that allows me to assign values to variables that control parameters such as wear on horizontal and vertical surfaces as well as the corners. I can also control the pigment, the surface normal, scale, rotation and translation.

The base layer is a simple light colored wood pattern.

I then place the paint layer on top of the base wood texture. Where the macro determines there is wear, the wood texture shows through the painted layer. The macro knows if it is texturing a vertical, horizontal or corner based on the surface normal of the object.

If you are interested in the code or a better explanation, I would be happy to post the code as well as more samples. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your interest,


Tim

Hi Tim,

thanks for the offer. I guess I will not go into POV ray but stay in core-C4D. But your pictures are an inspiration to do better with some pieces in my models. Appreciated to see more of your work.

Kind Rgds,

Stefan