Graf Zeppelin (Closed see part2)

[Archetype]

damn there goes my header :\

ah well ;)
just to fill up fr what is lost and have something reserved here
these where the latest

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwvduijn/gz/GZ_16.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwvduijn/gz/GZ_15.jpg

the rest can be found here (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kwvduijn/gz/)

[malefatal]

beautiful. Nice detail. I realy want to see it textured, that will be awesom.

Best regards, Tomek :)

[Skyraider3D]

You'll have a header with this in no-time again once the header system will be restored :D Awesome awesome awesome...

PS. I have lost my position as überspammer hehehe, only four posts so far!

[Martocticvs]

Aye she's looking great. We can definitely restore you to the header, once we have restored the header...

and I don't know, Ronnie... you've been back 5 minutes and already made 10k posts? whatever next?!

[Alexbur]

Looks very good!
I like such detailed elaboration!

[Meshfan]

Wow. Great render.

Wasn't the Graf partially built then scuttled when the Allies moved in on Germany?

[Martocticvs]

I think actually they just scrapped her before she was finished in order to concentrate on other projects...

[Skyraider3D]

The Germans stopped working on the ship on 2 February 1943 after a 30 January order to stop work on all big Kriegsmarine ships under construction. The Allies realised this and didn't bother bombing her into oblivion. After the war she lingered around for a short while, until the Soviets sank her with torpedoes in 1947, using torpedo boats and the destroyer "Grozyashchiy".


PS. Only 10,000?

[Meshfan]

Ah.

Anyone play Navyfield? It's a massive multiplayer game based on WWII naval battles. You can play as the UK, USA, Germans , or Japanese.

[Archetype]

i thought the germans scuttled it ?

i have to read my book again i guess



and btw
thnx for pointing out the navyfield game

im certainly willing to try that!

[Chukk]

everytime I re-look at your renders I pick up more and more detail. So my question is how do you limit yourself to how much detail to want to get into?(Skyraider3d is going to say nuts and bolts right about here:) ) The reason I ask is I sometimes catch myself working on something and saying "who is even going to be able to see this?"

[Meshfan]

i thought the germans scuttled it ?

i have to read my book again i guess



and btw
thnx for pointing out the navyfield game

im certainly willing to try that!


They have a free trial to when your bridge captain reaches level 30. Then the price to pay is the same as Xbox Live. :(

[Martocticvs]

I've looked at Navy Field, but I've heard a few bad things about it... its probably good fun though. I just prefer things with sails hehe

[Lukem]

Great to see this back mate! I'm looking forward to seeing it back on the header.

The Germans did scuttle her (at about 85 - 90% complete). The Russians then raised her - I've pictures of the the flight deck covered with cargo. I'm not sure what happened after that.

[pete.cook]

Really good to see this one back too! Definate header!

[Skyraider3D]

Yes, you're right Lukem. The Germans half-sank it in 1945 when the Soviets arrived. They then recovered it in 1946 only to sink it for good in 1947.

[Spinner]

All we need now is a nice tail-hooked 109T-1 to place on the elevater, wings folded.

[Archetype]

All we need now is a nice tail-hooked 109T-1 to place on the elevater, wings folded.

will do

just working on the ship first

wstarted on the a/a for the side of the ship but had to do another project in between
hopefully it will be finsied by tomorow so i can return to build this ship

everytime I re-look at your renders I pick up more and more detail. So my question is how do you limit yourself to how much detail to want to get into?(Skyraider3d is going to say nuts and bolts right about here:) ) The reason I ask is I sometimes catch myself working on something and saying "who is even going to be able to see this?"

i know its there if i know my model isnt complete it bothers me ALOT.
im actualy thinking about doing the inside for this baby

after i complete the exterior that is

the radar domes have nuts and bolts aswell, this since i need some closeups of it in my showreel

[Skyraider3D]

the radar domes have nuts and bolts aswell, this since i need some closeups of it in my showreelLuckily(?) once you do renders of aircraft on the deck, a lot of this detail will be visible :)

[Meshfan]

I've looked at Navy Field, but I've heard a few bad things about it... its probably good fun though. I just prefer things with sails hehe


True. Some players are really snobbish and cocky.

It's very addictive though.



The Navyfield team is currently working on an add-on to the original game based on the Age of Sail. :D :D

[Martocticvs]

Ah now that would make it worthwile for me... I'll have to keep my eye on it then - cheers for that bit of info!

[misterp36]

Great model what program are you using?

Ah.

Anyone play Navyfield? It's a massive multiplayer game based on WWII naval battles. You can play as the UK, USA, Germans , or Japanese.

i play navy field my login is misterp36

[Archetype]

max :) for everything from modeling/lighting/shading/rendering

[Spinner]

Just looking at the plans for her sprinkler system.
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/KM_Graf_Zeppelin_1939//wasserschleier_anlage_100dpi.jpg

[TheGreatRaja]

Nice work there on the old GZ :) things could have been a whole lot different if they had completed her.

[Lukem]

Finally back on the header then!

Any new progress for us?

[Archetype]

unfortunatly no :)

[Lukem]

I'm sorry to hear that - mind you, haven't you just graduated (or am I thinking of someone else)?

[Archetype]

im in the process of so :D

[Novak]

Really nice work, Like it alot, Good details... Keep posting..


Greetz, Novak

[jclark]

agreed, I would love seeing this rendered into a scene.

[Andyf]

I like your carrier!
PS You should make in future some Bf 109Ts and Ju87Cs and Fieselers Fi 167 (a torpedo bomber designed for it) too!

[Andyf]

By the way: I know some books about GZ:rolleyes:

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0887402429
http://www.modellversium.de/presse/artikel.php?id=536
http://aj-press.home.pl/eow42.htm

PS http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/KM_Graf_Zeppelin_1939//wasserschleier_anlage_100dpi.jpg (huge blueprint!!!)

[Andyf]

I found 2 photos showing 15cm twinturrets from GZ!
After the projet was cancelled, the 15cm twinturrets were used as coastal artillery. 4 of the 8 turrets went to Norway, where they were placed in open emplacements.

After the war, the Norwegian army kept one of them in their stores. In 1962 it was placed in a new casemate, where it was operational until 1998(!!) Today, the last turret is on storeage on the artillerymuseum at Oscarsborg, Oslo.

[Skyraider3D]

Interesting story, Andy! :)

[Andyf]

By the way: http://www.unterwasserwelt.de/html/flugzeugtrager_graf_zeppelin.html

[Andyf]

Naval flaks http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_20mm-65_c30.htm
http://www.hot.ee/relvaleht/relv-3c.jpg

Plus some closeups of equipment on Prinz Eugen: http://www.prinzeugen.com/PGdetails.htm

[Andyf]

some nice photos:
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-2.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/botadura.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-1.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/GZ-bot2.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-4.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-3raisedbyURSS.jpg

waiting for progress report:cool:

[Archetype]

some nice photos:
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-2.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/botadura.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-1.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/GZ-bot2.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-4.jpg
http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Portaaviones/Alemanes/grafz-3raisedbyURSS.jpg

waiting for progress report:cool:


hehe thanks for the refs!

i will start working again tomorow as it will be my last day in school i have to talk with an exam commision.

to be honest.. i did have some free time.. but coudnt resist playing navyfield on the missouri server

[Skyraider3D]

to be honest.. i did have some free time.. but coudnt resist playing navyfield on the missouri serverThat's dedication for you! :p

[Archetype]

hehe working my way up to the graf zepplin in that game.. love to control it aswell :D

[Archetype]

heres a first peek of my 37sk

[Martocticvs]

Looks like you have far better refs than I did for the smaller armament on the KGV. Should be good!

[Archetype]

Looks like you have far better refs than I did for the smaller armament on the KGV. Should be good!


believe it or not.. these are the worst refs i have, the others are so detailed i cant trace the basic shape

[Martocticvs]

I had nothign at all... just grainy photos.

And is it just me, or have some of the google ad links turned the same colour as your usertitle? hehe

[Archetype]

lol yes they did ^.^
the pink is spreading like a virus :D


currently building a 1:370 scale model of the ship just to highlight some problem area's

[Archetype]

man.. 4 weeks of braincracking on the 37sk.. i gave up on it..
thank god i have some friends here
Eross was kind enough to share some geometry. i replaced some of the inaccurate stuff with the geometry i had and came up with this


anyway id rather have built it myself but im having a hard time reading the references i have.

i want to get this part of my hands so i can continue building the rest of my GZ

[Lukem]

Looking good, sir - I had started wondering if the GZ project had died. Great to see a new update.

[Martocticvs]

Good that you;re not stuck anymore then - looking great.

[Archetype]

nah just too occupied with alot of things

trying to get work on it each every 2 days apart

[Archetype]

btw

i found out what my nxt ship will be

i got Good "not great but Good references of the H44 Class"
wich is the last ship the KM ever designed


just a small Size reference compare the H44 to the tirpitz " wich was slightly bigger than the bismarck"
im sticking with the never built/finished concept for now too


u gotta love the 50,8 CM shells.. they dont get any bigger than that!


Tirpitz
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_tirpitz.gif
52.600 tons
251 m
8 x 38 cm
163.000 shp
30.8 kn

H39
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_battleshiph.gif
62.497 tons
277,8 m
8 x 40,6 cm
165.000 shp
30,0 kn

H40a
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h40a.gif
65.600 tons
282,9 m
6 x 40,6 cm
230.000 shp
32,2 kn
H40b

http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h40b.gif
70.000 tons
299,8 m
8 x 40,6 cm
240.000 shp
32,3 kn

H41
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h41.gif
76.000 tons
300,4 m
8 x 40,6 cm
165.000 shp
28,8 kn

H42
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h42.gif
98.000 tons
305,2 m
8 x 40,6 cm
270,000 shp
32,2 kn

H43
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h43.gif
120.000 tons
330,2 m
8 x 50,8 cm
270.000 shp
31,0 kn

H44
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/t_h44.gif
141.500 tons
345,1 m
8 x 50,8 cm
165.000 shp
30,1 kn

[Admiral T'Var]

Ill be watching this one with great interest. You have any plans of doing the Montana class as well?

[Archetype]

i might, not to fond of us ships

[Lukem]

Wow - you've got references of the H44s? I've got some bits of either H41 or H42 from 'Axis and Neutral Battleships of the Second World War'. I'd assumed H44 was very much a pipe dream.

[Andyf]

Hi Archetype!

It is not joke:eek: hydolocation ship of Polish Navy was sent today to take a look on about 270 m long wreck laying on 80 m deapth found recently (by petro reserach comapny) near Polish coast!!!

We will get more info and video soon!

Andyf

[Skyraider3D]

Awesome!!!

[Lukem]

You're joking!? I can't wait to see it.....

[digiartist]

wow, hopefully there will be aprogram on history about the find soon!

[Andyf]

OK, we are waiting for identification, but take it seriously!
I should get some sonar pics showing wreck today!

[Skyraider3D]

270m long wrecks aren't that common ;)

[Spinner]

80m, thats no deeper than the Wilhelm Gustlof.
Lets hope they can keep the looters away. I guess theres no inscribed ash trays but anything with GZ markings would bring bulk Euros.

[kiwi123]

can't wait to see that !

[Andyf]

BTW sample pages from AJPRESS monography

http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_wkladka_kolor.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_108.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_wkladka_bw.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_70-71.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_19.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_44-45.jpg

[Andyf]

Still we don't have an official confirmation, but take a look on sonar photos from "Petrobaltic" S.A.:
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_1.jpg
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_2.JPG

[Lukem]

Looks about the right size dosen't it - it also looks upright.

Thanks for the info.

[Spinner]

Those holes in the plan form are intrieging.

[Lukem]

Two of them could be the fore & aft elevators - the big one in the middle; who knows. Wasn't she used for target practice at one time?

[Archetype]

BTW sample pages from AJPRESS monography

http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_wkladka_kolor.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_108.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_wkladka_bw.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_70-71.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_19.jpg
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_s_44-45.jpg


yeah i recieed those on a1 when i ordered the book


Still we don't have an official confirmation, but take a look on sonar photos from "Petrobaltic" S.A.:
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_1.jpg
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_2.JPG


it looks like the wrecks been found ? if that aint the GZ i have no clue what else it could be.. the dimensions look accurate i could overlay a top drawin to see if the lifs lign up

wow i gotta get me some diving skills then


See the thumb for the overlay.. seems to have som extra space near the end but i got both lifts ligned up and the midle lift fits in the open deck

[Andyf]

Thanks for comparing multithread echosonda view and blueprint!
PS Unfortunatly wreck is located close to oil field and discovering by divers will be prohibted probably;o(

[Skyraider3D]

Well at least we seem to have a match... now the permissions etc...

[Lukem]

Wow! Couldn't be much closer could it? The mess at the stern could be that the stern has collapsed - it was a weak point on the other heavy ships; can't see it being different on GZ.

Andyf: Someone will document it surely - would the same prohibition cover ROVs?

[Archetype]

if some one is going in there with an ROV id love to be there.. :)

[Andyf]

AFAIK ORP "Arctowski" (Polish Navy ship sent there) is well equipped, maybe with some kind of remotely operated vehicle too...

PS Same ship located wreck of "GENERAL VON STEUBEN" in 2004.

[Andyf]

We have an official confirmation from Polish Navy, that it is the wreck of German aircraft carrier GRAF ZEPPELIN !!!!

[Skyraider3D]

Awesome!!! :cool:

Common Archetype, finish that model - quick! You might be able to make some money with it in the not too distant future (documentaries etc...) ;)

[Andyf]

Archetype, I will sell your model (with my small commission), but pls guarantee the exclusiveness for Poland :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Spinner]

Damn that sonar imaging is good.
Yeah, you'd sell a render tomorrow that showed the sonar image superimposed on your model.

[Lukem]

Excellent! That only leaves one heavy ship to find - Lutzow (apparently).

So Archetype, when are you building the wrecked version?

[Skyraider3D]

So Archetype, when are you building the wrecked version?Just apply the Noise modifier when you're done! :lol:

[Archetype]

i dont know what up but suddenly very1 wants to have my Gz model lol

wiek has asked me to finish it aswell as he want to use it for his current project @ work or something..

im going to find some extra time to finish it asap

[Skyraider3D]

i dont know what upwhat's DOWN you mean! ;) Down at the bottom of the sea... :p

[kiwi123]

Hey, that was supposed to be a secret :)

[Archetype]

well :P good thing u kept too your NDA then ^^

[Andyf]

Keep going ;)
http://www.german-navy.de/pics/kriegsmarine/grafzeppelin.gif

[Archetype]

only thing i need some good refs for is the crane all i have is a top/side atm

gonna continue tonight

hoping to fix the quads .. i have poor reference though just some drawings i got from Eross "bismarcks quad a/a.
it will get the base down for me but wont reach the amount of detail i had planned


i have another project running atm for an intership i had 2 years ago.
its currently halfway have done all the modeling just need to show them the first animation setup


so on my farm rendering

[Andyf]

Could you show me location and sample of missing "quads" and "crane"?
I will take a look around...

PS I hope that you have got my email with H44.

[cobra6]

http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_1.jpg
http://xs304.xs.to/xs304/06303/GZ_2.JPG

;)

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

Could you show me location and sample of missing "quads" and "crane"?
I will take a look around...

PS I hope that you have got my email with H44.

yes i got it thanks

havent gotten around answering all my emails yet

the lower gun on this image, unfortunatly the GZ book by Aj press included drawings of every thing i needed except those two
http://aj-press.home.pl/images/rekl/eow42_wkladka_kolor.jpg



for the crane take a look at the scan

[Spinner]

The damage on the flightdeck sure seems to match the russian bomb load installation story.
What caliber are those quads?

[Archetype]

http://bismarck-class.dk/technicallayout/armament/artillery20mgc38.html

[Spinner]

Ah, Right about now a copy of the Bismark Anatomy of the ship series would be handy. One I dont have unfortunately.

[Archetype]

yeah the plans i have are from that book.

same as you can see on the site but larger

the thing is that these guns mounted on the Gz are slightly different

[decoman]

BBC online news today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5223514.stm

[Archetype]

small update

[Lukem]

Looking good mate!

As far as the quads go, build the ones from the Bismarck - first off, how many renders are going to show them in full detail and secondly, chances are the GZ would have been fitted with the same ones anyway, if she had been completed. This goes back to my arguement concerning the AA fire directors - she would have ended up with a similar setup to that on Tirpitz, if she was afloat at the time. Just my opinion, you understand.

[cobra6]

very nice!

more more!
hehe

Cobra 6

[Nils]

Come to think of it, most carriers has/had the superstructure on the starboard side, why is it so? Has it anything to do with the torque of the plane engines dragging to the port? Or has it just became that way by chance?
BTW VERY nice model!!

[Spinner]

Lukem has a point. If someone comes along with refs good enough to criticise that detail, use their refs to redo them then.

[Archetype]

hmm heres a full shot

i guess ill have to take tirpitz/bismarcks a/a then

some minor updates put in there aswell
added the rear mast and edited the midle one also beziered the wiring a bit
thats if for this weekend though i need to get back to work on another clients animation

[Andyf]

AFAIK Your "quad" should be Flak 35 (Vierling) on naval mount L38/43 (Vierlingslafette)
http://www.collectrussia.com/sboot/vierling.jpg

more photos: http://www.prinzeugen.com/PGWeapons.htm

[Andyf]

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/miscellaneous/book_reviews/a_j_press/pictures/admiral_hipper_33_cz_1/admiral_hipper_07.jpg

[Martocticvs]

Great to see an update!

[Andyf]

maybe could we find more about naval 20 mm Flaks in such book, but I don't have it...

[Andyf]

some more photos, but in land version...

[Spinner]

Notice a few variations between that plan by Helmut Meinhardt and the pics, dual seats etc.
Seems the normal variations we see elsewhere in installations of WW2 guns.
Those Werner Muller books seem worth getting for german item modellers. The 88 and 2cm are both around at about $8 - $11US.


edit - Just discovered that book is 48 pages. Guess the value depends on whats on them.

[Andyf]

Spinner, if you find/buy booklet Waffen Arsenal about 20 mm Flaks, pls let me know about blueprint/ photos content:rolleyes:

PS I found probably better booklet by Wolfgang Fleischer!

[Andyf]

OK, I have got AJPRESS monography too...and I can see taht we need this version of Flak 38!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/Andyth/Scharnhorst.jpg

PS It is not easy to find right crane:(

[Spinner]

Looks very like the bofors mount.

[Andyf]

British Bofors 40 mm

[Andyf]

Russian photos from the sinking of the GZ!
http://www.feindfahrten.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=452&sid=&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=&page=7

http://www.geocities.com/tragerphoto/

[Andyf]

OK, we are looking for 2 cm M.G.C/35 on Vierlingslafette C 38 (without shield and 2 man in front on seats), not on C 38/43 (late version of Laffetette).

[Andyf]

I can't find exactly crane for GZ, similar only...
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/Details37.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/crane.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/Details10.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/details40.jpg

[bigz]

Polish Navy confirms they have found the Graf Zeppelin.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5542

[Archetype]

Polish Navy confirms they have found the Graf Zeppelin.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=5542


lol your a bit late m8 :P

andyf "who has posted above"

already enlightened us earlier :)


I can't find exactly crane for GZ, similar only...
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/Details37.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/crane.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/Details10.jpg
http://www.collectrussia.com/sBoot/PG/details40.jpg


hmmm id rather put on the bismarcks cranes then

[Andyf]

Hi Archetype!
I tried my best by crane...checked Bismarck, Tirpitz, PrinzEugen, Admiral Hipper, Scharnhorst..nothing similar:err:

PS But I should get blueprints for our wanted Flak-guads from guy who made 3d models for AJPRESS monography!

[Lukem]

Good God man! How many contacts do you have?!

That crane appears to be a totally unique design (I hadn't notice before) - but then it would be.
The top view dosen't appear to be much help; could you take another crane design (ie Bismarck) and add some pulleys?

[Zorin]

Archetype, what numbers do your plans give for the planes to be used on the GZ in 1940?

I need to know for a campaign around the GZ in IL2.

[Lukem]

Not many if memory serves; 48? does that ring a bell?

[Archetype]

Hi Archetype!
I tried my best by crane...checked Bismarck, Tirpitz, PrinzEugen, Admiral Hipper, Scharnhorst..nothing similar:err:

PS But I should get blueprints for our wanted Flak-guads from guy who made 3d models for AJPRESS monography!

ah from Stefan Draminski ?
hes got some nice models going on man


anyway about the crane
what i ment was that id rather put on a KM design even though it means its the wrong crane


Archetype, what numbers do your plans give for the planes to be used on the GZ in 1940?

I need to know for a campaign around the GZ in IL2.

ill have a look into that tonight


this is what german-navy.de says

Aircraft
Me 109 T: 4
Ju 87 C: 13
Fi 167: 20
although this doesnt list the arado's


another site states :
Aircraft: 40: 18 Ju 87C, 22 sea-version Me 109T

another
Aircraft 48 + spares

So theres a lot of speculation going on ..
ill have a look at what siegfried breyer has too say about it and im assuming his count to be the most accurate

[Zorin]

Thanks Archetype. I'm really interested what Breyer has to say about it.

[Archetype]

according to the 1942 project 30 stuka's and 12 109t's

[Zorin]

Interesting, so they cancelled the whole Fi167 torpedo bomber idea by 1942?

[Archetype]

havent had time too look up the entire story but thats what i got by quicly reading over it

[Spinner]

I'm interested in any 3 view of the single 20mm, if anyone turns one up in this hunt for the quad refs. I'm building up refs for a future S-boat.

[Nostromo]

The best refs for a small money you find here:

http://www.ship-model-today.de/sd113.htm

[Zorin]

Here you should find all you need: http://prinzeugen.com/SBOATIND.htm

Sorry for being offtopic here, Archetype.

[Spinner]

Nostromo,
Thanks. Exactly what I need.
The detail of exactly where the net frame suport rod attaches to the mount has been very hard to find. His drawing shows that clearly. I'll get a few of his drawings. Fair price, IMO.

Zorin,
Thanks mate. It's currently the best on the net for S-boats, but many details still needed.

Archetype,
Thanks for the tempory use of your thread. lol
Sorry for dragging it OT.

[Skyraider3D]

There should be an S-boot amongst these too...
http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/

[Archetype]

I'm interested in any 3 view of the single 20mm, if anyone turns one up in this hunt for the quad refs. I'm building up refs for a future S-boat.


i can provide those
youd have to wait untill i get home though

been thinking of doing a schnellboot too love too see you get started on that

[Andyf]

http://bismarck3d.netstrefa.com.pl/gal/200.jpg

[Archetype]

wow i just came in a hairs thickness close too committing suicide.

saturday night, whilst working on my pc my hdd died on me.. would not load windows anymore..
"note that all my recent work files had been stored on my windows disk.. something that will NEVER happen again"

while unzipping i had some redundance issues wich slowed my pc down like hell
when i rebooted it failed to restart windows

i coud not acces the hdd in anyway. since this specific hdd does not like too be a slave it wouldnt show in my computer
i managed too install windows on my secondary hdd without having too format it


this way i had atleast hoped too save my backup.
it succeeded but i later found out the backup was way outdated. and didnt contain any major updates..
"yes im stupid"

so today i asked my boss if he knew a solution
he told me too hook up the hdd too the cdrom IDE and fire it up
Fortunatly this worked and i manged too copy all of the files of the hdd..

so close too losing this ship aswell..

[Martocticvs]

Close call! The lesson there I think is backup regularly to a removable media!

[Archetype]

got a dvd burner but im too lazy too make monthly backups

my lesson for today is never too buy maxtor again though..

[Andyf]

BTW This software could help with dead hdd
http://www.grc.com/spinrite.htm

[krazycolin]

being lazy means (sorry to say) being stupid. having lost data to laziness myself, i can tell you it's not worth having a way to back up and not doing it. you can even set it up so that's it's pretty much automatic.... think of it this way: you would be upset if you lost your data? well.. rather be upset about the 1 to 2 minutes to do an auto back... sorry if i seem like i'm attacking you... i'm not... it's just that it really has nothing to do with it being maxtor or any other drive for that matter. ANY drive can die. taking all of your hard work with it. GONE.

[Skyraider3D]

Colin is right I'm afraid. And I should badly do some backups too.

If anything, get a Hotmail or Gmail account and every now and then mail yourself the max file :)
When your HD fails and your backup CD won't work anymore, you still have a copy online ;)

[Archetype]

Colin is right I'm afraid. And I should badly do some backups too.

If anything, get a Hotmail or Gmail account and every now and then mail yourself the max file :)
When your HD fails and your backup CD won't work anymore, you still have a copy online ;)

im lazy its true, i should also shoot myself for not doing it more often
but ive built upa major grudge againt maxtor nowdays..
also spoken too alot of people who also had a lot of problems with their harddrives


the thing that pisses me off most is that it was brand new..
i only installed it 4 months earlier when i had a simular chrash but coudnt restore the harddrive

im not telling you that you shoud not buy maxtor or anything..
ive just sweared it off myself

ronnie now that you tell me i do realise i have gmail backups !
of the semi most recent save.. so i would still have it

i send out some mails about every week between my work and home
didnt realise i still had it stored there

[Skyraider3D]

Funny thing... I also heard of many Maxtor haters and avoided these drives myself. So when my old, old computer died I got a Seagate Barracuda thingy. Cost a few bucks more but hey, I got something very reliable. Then the friggin thing died on my after only one week, just as I had everything up and running and all my data transfered from my old harddisk (which survived the crash). Arrggghh... So I went back to the shop and got a Maxtor instead :)
But then a year later I bought my current PC which is running Seagate again.
My old IBM "Deathstar" which are notoriously unreliable, is still working after having survived two PC crashes and subsequent file transfers, dangling on the side of my new PC's while copying and being shifted from PC to desk to closet to bookshelf. It's also more than 5 years old - possibly much more. And it still works fine with not a single bad sector.
O well... it's Russian Roulette, what can you say! :D

[Archetype]

i have 2 ibm disk that are atleast 10 years old wich still work fine lol..

[Andyf]

Back to the topic...book about Me109T
http://www.proinor.no/books/bf109t.htm

[Archetype]

some new renders ;)

having some fun with vray 1.5 and ambient occlusion
also modeled the doors ;) so my sailors can actualy enter the superstructure

fixed the forward sl-6 structures. FINALY have the right structures.


rust need some tweaking some parts need to be excluded from ambient oclusion. havent gotten the time yet to figure this out.

[vf-1msx]

good work:)

[Alexbur]

Impressive! Guns, directors, searchlights, antennas and all looks great. It would be great to see your work in cinema project or at History Canal.

[cobra6]

Very nice work! So you also make backups of parts I see floating around;)

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

yeah they are just reference objects, been working with stuff like that since i started building ships
not exactly backups more templates to create stuff with

for instance the cylinder is used to boolean portholes.

[Skyraider3D]

Rust? She was brand new! :)

[Andyf]

Maybe it is condition when Russians found GZ in 1945 :lol:

[Archetype]

Rust? She was brand new! :)


even new ships look rusted ;)

[giant551]

Really starting tho look the part now very impressive:)

[Martocticvs]

Looking great! Those Germans need to learn how to look after their ships though! hehe

[eross]

even new ships look rusted ;)

No they don't ;)...
New ships are painted, precisely for that puropose : not to rust :)
I think that in the case of the GZ (maybe never painted), metal plates should look "oxidized" rather than rusted.
Anyway, your rusted test looks convincing. Apart from the rust traces around the catapult. I suppose these parts were particularly well protected again rust, and somehow greased. What d'you think ?

Beautiful work, anyway !, keep it up !

Cheers
eRoss
http://www.erossdesign.com

[eross]

Rust? She was brand new! :)


You're too kind !... She was brand unfinished ! :D

[Archetype]

i can remove the catapult from the occlusion easily ;)

[Lukem]

Surely at this stage of construction the hull wouldn't look quite so clean?

Can't wait to see the secondary armament (was it 8"?). The rest looks a touch too rusty......

[Spinner]

Anyway, your rusted test looks convincing. Apart from the rust traces around the catapult. I suppose these parts were particularly well protected again rust, and somehow greased.

Been thinking about those moving contact areas lately myself.
Catapult parts, gun barrel slide sections, mounts etc. All the greased, shiney steel bits from recent use are often overlooked when we model from todays' examples, as they're often over-painted.

GZ looks great!

[Archetype]

new renders

should have finished the superstructure now

[Skyraider3D]

Sorry to be a pain, but the rusty stuff really spoils it for me. It looks too bright (colourful), too heavy and rather procedural. If you like it cause it brings out the detail, perhaps make it darker and less saturated, and make it semi-transparent (say about 20% of what it is now). This will make it a lot more subtle and realistic, I think.

Just my 2 cents :)

[krazycolin]

I agree with Ronnie... the rust is too even and way too bright... and perhaps a bit too wide, especially around the decks meeting walls areas... i would think that these areas would get the most care...

[Spinner]

I would think the guns would get plenty of TLC.
lol

[Lukem]

Sorry, I agree with the others regarding the rust. The modelling is outstanding though.

[digiartist]

beautiful detail, going to be a stunner when she's finished

[Archetype]

sry that i havent posted any updates..
since moday morning ive been quite sick :\

anyway my thoughts about the rust. its a bit overpowered now yes but hoping it will be less dominant when i hit some real textures on the ship

[Archetype]

i must be nuts doing this on subdiv2 and making high res planes :p

might needs some pointers on the rear of the cockpit cutout.
it still seems odd too me.

[Skyraider3D]

Glad to see you've started it again. I must say though, it doesn't look nearly as accurate as your first attempt, let alone detailed.

[Archetype]

Glad to see you've started it again. I must say though, it doesn't look nearly as accurate as your first attempt, let alone detailed.

i went a bit overboard with the paneling that time.

still have the renders of it on wich i can check accuracy though
perhaps you could point me out where the biggest flaws are ? "obviously in the airintake ;)"

[Spinner]

C or E?
That's the question, I guess?

[Skyraider3D]

C or E?
That's the question, I guess?Not really, as it's clearly a C-model (round chin air intake) :)


perhaps you could point me out where the biggest flaws are ? "obviously in the airintake ;)"Well yes there's the top air scoop but I am sure you were not forgetting about that. The model thusfar seems to lack the subtle curves and corners of the real thing. For instance the chin air intake is rather thick and chunky. The top of the nose looks too narrow, from the front right up to the cockpit. The windshield needs to be a little bit steeper and wider, and the alignment compared to the first sliding part doesn't sit quite right. The radius at the top of the canopy needs looking at, especially towards the rear. Or perhaps it needs a bit more tapering towards the top. Overall it just looks a little bit "rushed" and not as sharp and gritty as the real thing.

Here's a nice pic, btw:
http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/stranieri/ju87_carlo_seganti.JPG

[Archetype]

hmm i dont see how the shape could be off folowed the blueprints for that "the ones u gave me 2 years earlier"

in fact i thought i did better than my last attempt

perhaps i should make a plane renderer without highlights

[cobra6]

Intake is ok. Its just that you havent installed the rear panels on it yet which stick out :)

I believe the cockpit cutout should be more rounded.

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

here are some new renders and a wire

about that cockpit cutout are you refering too the front or the rear ?

[Spinner]

Not really, as it's clearly a C-model (round chin air intake) :)




What I was getting at is that there's a choice inherit for anyone doing a GZ hypothetical, between the flown C or the later intended but scrapped E.
Seems available refs have made that choice.

@Archetype,
It's a bit hard to view but if the 2nd last pic shows the mid canopy section smaller than the other pics or not?
The sliding hoods both slide over that mid section and for me the look depends on that change in silouette, mid canopy profile.

[Archetype]

yeah its smaller in all render just not visible in the others because of the angle i guess
i figured as much as it sliding over that part wich is why i made it so it would fit on the fuselage witout protruding. perhaps i should thicken the forward canopy a bit?

[Spinner]

yeah its smaller in all render just not visible in the others because of the angle i guess
i figured as much as it sliding over that part wich is why i made it so it would fit on the fuselage witout protruding. perhaps i should thicken the forward canopy a bit?

Maybe?
It's looking too monolithic to me currently.

[Skyraider3D]

hmm i dont see how the shape could be off folowed the blueprintsBlooprints Schmooprints :lol:
Look at photographs - extensively. Drawings only give you half the story, unfortunately.

For instance, check this photo. Try aligning your model to it. You'll see that the curvature on the top of the nose on your model will be quite different from this angle, even though it may look perfect according to the drawings.
http://www.ouka.fi/ppm/laukka/kuvat/8/7992.jpg

[Spinner]

My refs show the B2 with an inlet on top of the nose.
I'm unclear if the C was similar but note all were converted to B2 status pretransfer to 4 stuka.
I have Watanabe's B2 stuka drawing open before me and am doing a bunch of scanning today. If you'd like it?

[Spinner]

For what its worth?

[cobra6]

here are some new renders and a wire

about that cockpit cutout are you refering too the front or the rear ?

rear :)

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

My refs show the B2 with an inlet on top of the nose.
I'm unclear if the C was similar but note all were converted to B2 status pretransfer to 4 stuka.
I have Watanabe's B2 stuka drawing open before me and am doing a bunch of scanning today. If you'd like it?

i havent made the inlet because its asymetrical
will do later on
first priority is to get the shape right

[Archetype]

so wich set is the more accurate then?

[Skyraider3D]

Although Watanabe makes excellent drawings, the scan looks warped to me.

Best overlay your drawing with a perfect sideview photograph, if you can find one.

[Archetype]

Although Watanabe makes excellent drawings, the scan looks warped to me.

Best overlay your drawing with a perfect sideview photograph, if you can find one.

nfortunatly i havent yet
most google pics show it in a dive etc

[Andyf]

Side photo of C version!

[Archetype]

hmm tail seems too be off but for the rest it looks quite ok could be a slight perspective though but seing i got the wheels too match up it shoudnt be.

also an update

and attached an overlay with my mesh should be good now i guess
didnt change that much though

ateast not in the general shape

i streched the nosecone a bit and shaped the chin intake so it looks more like the profile

the biggest change i made was on the thickness of the front side of that chin intake scaled i modeled it wrong.. my bad folowed the wrong line in the plans "silly me, i forgot about the inner part wich is a lot thicker

[Skyraider3D]

That's a pretty decent match indeed. Tail does look a bit off, but could be perspective.

[Archetype]

That's a pretty decent match indeed. Tail does look a bit off, but could be perspective.



the ruder could be rotated that should explain that part but it seems that the length just is so much shorter

[Spinner]

Good enough for govt work.
Interesting to see both refs undersize the spinner.
Re-enforces what you say about the value of photographs, Ronnie.

The tail height is interesting. That thing was supposed to float for three days if ditched, dropable gear etc, so perhaps major balance differences from other variations? A shorter tail is conceivable.

Certainly tuned the model up.

[Archetype]

Good enough for govt work.
Interesting to see both refs undersize the spinner.
Re-enforces what you say about the value of photographs, Ronnie.

The tail height is interesting. That thing was supposed to float for three days if ditched, dropable gear etc, so perhaps major balance differences from other variations? A shorter tail is conceivable.

Certainly tuned the model up.

yeah photo's are an awesome reference just hard too fiind the right ones sometimes


the photo u gave me earlier fixed my gunpots aswell

[Spinner]

Glad it helped.
Interesting to note the angle the pic is showing its elevater counterweight to us. It's well behind the rudder instead of mid tail, if it was orthographic.
That lense might even be as wide as 35mm focal leangth on a 35mm film. Anybody's guess really I supose. I was told by an Aust Beaufighter pilot that they cut up gun cam film in the squadron darkroom for their own use. So anything with a lense was in use on the allied side and I expect the same applied amongst the axis guys.

[Lukem]

I can't wait to see your GZ with a flight of those on the deck!

Did I notice a difference with the wheel shrouds as well? The ones in the photo look quite a bit longer.

[Skyraider3D]

Did I notice a difference with the wheel shrouds as well? The ones in the photo look quite a bit longer.They indeed seem to be slightly bigger on the real thing, but don't forget the perspective. They're not far off at all. More noticable perhaps is the lack of slanting on the drawing of the leading edge of the bottom part of the wheel covers, compared to the photos.

[Lukem]

Fair enough:D

[Archetype]

here's another update

still looking for refeence photo's of the rear cockpit so i can see how the gunmount fits into the overlapping piece of metal on the fuselage.

also added a start to the tailfin "the shorter C version of the photograph"


cutout of the nose intake still needs its individual paneling trying to see what the best way is too do that

[Spinner]

No luck on the mount yet but heres a dashboard and B-1 exterior
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Neuigkeiten/web/new%20site/frames2/Neuigkeiten.htm

The mount seems to be integral to the sliding frame. I'll do a scan tonight.

[Archetype]

small update
added the front landing gear and fixed the paneling still considering what too do though i think texturing looks better

also added a small mockup of the tail, needs intergrating with the tailfin

[Lukem]

Looking good as far as I can tell.

[Martocticvs]

Modelling looks good to me. As far as accuracy is concerned, I wouldn't have the foggiest!

[Archetype]

me neither lol i do ships not planes :)
i think i got it fairly acurate.. but that said im not the best person too judge that

[Archetype]

heres the last two for tonight

[Spinner]

This might help?
Surprising how strong the rear canopy frame is. The main overhead strut is armor plate. Pretty robust structure.

[Zorin]

That is a later version of the rear canopy section. Early variants had a single MG and a different armor setup.

[Andyf]

B version had MG-15 gun.

[Archetype]

ah thanks andy

almost there just need to make the flat bit at the bottom

i have the right gun though just need to remove the aim and move it forwards
seems like it was modified from the version i have references off

[Skyraider3D]

That's looking nice, though it isn't quite a Stuka yet. Perhaps cut in the airscoop on the top of the nose and it may stop looking "different".
Also under the windshield the fuselage is pinching a bit.
I am not sure if the tailfin should be shorter. I think this is merely a perspective issue, but I am not 100% sure of this.

[Archetype]

ive seen reference drawing in my gz book showing it too be shorter too
the also shortened the wingspan etc

[Skyraider3D]

Hmmm interesting :)
I guess it was to make it all fit under the carrier deck.

[Andyf]

ive seen reference drawing in my gz book showing it too be shorter too
the also shortened the wingspan etc

Are you reffering to pages 70-72 in Polish monography "Graf Zeppelin" by AJ-PRESS?

BTW Take a look at photos from wreck!
http://www.e-aolej.com/graf.html
http://aj-press.home.pl/Analiza_zdjec_ROV.pdf

[Archetype]

hers your cut-out my friend

the pinching i cant solve unfortunatly any edits too my mesh will only make it look worse unfortunatly

my mistake for starting too lowpoly i guess
yep andy, exactly what im refering too

[Skyraider3D]

hers your cut-out my friendIt's not quite the right shape. There's a sort of recess in front of the intake:
http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Ju87-R2-4.jpg
Also this area is quite assymmetric! I'll see if I can find a better shot and will e-mail it...

the pinching i cant solve unfortunatlySure you can ;)


PS. Many Stuka photos here and on the next few pages:
http://www.luftwaffephotos.com/lju871.htm

[kevjon]

I'd imagine you'd have to be wary of keeping the poly count down on the Stuka as many hi poly planes on the deck might make it unmanageable to render or manipulate.

[Skyraider3D]

By the time he's finished with his GZ, See Stuka, Bf 109 T and Fi 167, I am sure his computer will be able to handle it! :D

[kevjon]

Moore's Law ?

[Skyraider3D]

Aye, something like that :)

Add to that a few harddisk failures... :p

[Archetype]

right i shortened the side wall and made a stronger corner on the oposide side
it seems that there is somekind of extrusion on top that is only present on the right side of the aircraft will try too create that next

[Archetype]

already on it btw

saving some cash to pay for my core duo with 2x dual sli 1024 cards
not to mention vrays unholy skill in matte objects ;)

[Skyraider3D]

Yes that's more like a Stuka air intake! Well done! :)

[Archetype]

i hate unsymetric stuff though ;)

[Spinner]

Shaping up nicely.

[digiartist]

looking good, this has been a fantastic WIP thread to follow

[Archetype]

yeah going for the WIP thead of the year ;)

really though i adore you folks fo all the quick and clear help you have given me so far, i dont think i have told you guys that enough

[Lukem]

yeah going for the WIP thead of the year ;)


Surely you've got that by now!:lol:

I'm thinking the poly-count is going to be quite enormous by the end - it'll look even more spectacular with lots of Stukas and BF109T's on the flight-deck!

[Archetype]

im guessing round 10 mil i wont render the whole thing in 1 but rather split it up in parts for example i can render the deck and the hull on the first half. and then turn the deck into a matte object and renders several passes of planes

stuka's fi's 109's seperate in a render

[Archetype]

heres an update.
put some rlm on added the propblades / cutouts and the rear suspention + wheel

rear suspention seems retractable "pistons" need to make the cutout for it i guess

looking through some refs for some info

[Skyraider3D]

'racing green' ey? :)

Canopy sides still look a bit too steep, I think. Maybe some FFD modifier to squash it a bit at the top?

Propeller blades need work... much too twisted.

Otherwise coming together nicely.

PS. Not sure what your plan is with the wings... flaps and ailerons can't be textured but need to be seperate geometry as they're suspended under the wing.

[Martocticvs]

I know nothing, but it looks good to me.

[Archetype]

yeah the flaps and ailerons still need to be modeled

im still not that sure on the steepness been googling for a good photoref too compare it too untill i have that ill stick too the drawings as they seem to be quite accurate so far " except for the nosecone i dint have too change that much


anyway if u know the rotation angle of the propblades i can easily adjust my twist modifier too make it work right

[Spinner]

There's a few pit close up pics around of Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[Archetype]

its the wrong cockpit though

[Skyraider3D]

For the prop, just use photographs and this image as a guide.

http://skyraider3d.military-meshes.com/reference/prop_element.jpg

Don't use a twist modifier as the twist isn't uniform. Just build propblades like you build wings :)

[Spinner]

Another pic with a look at the canopy angle. No idea which model but was there much variation of that angle?

[Archetype]

and there we go all the freaking cut-outs for the other side of the ship..

[Skyraider3D]

Looks bloody awesome :)

[kevjon]

Can't wait to see this one finished with a bunch of planes on the deck. Will be one of the most impressive 3D models yet.

[Spinner]

Hell of a lot of work but oh so worth it in the end.

[Alexbur]

I agree with kevjon.
Fine work, very nice!

[Martocticvs]

Nice update!

[Lukem]

Just to echo Kevjon's comments - this will look absolutely amazing with a few planes on board.

How much have you got left to do to the ship itself?

[Archetype]

some guns, the platforms that are on the side.
some poles wich seem too connect too the deck
the lifeboats/barkassen

lots and lots of railing/details for this side most of wich i have modeled but need correct placement wich takes some time


the textures :)
Very close too finishing the ship model atleast.
afterwards all the planes except the stuka, and the environment scene.
wich im still thinking about.. probably doing a drydock.. "so lame yes"

ive done the interioir decks now "just those visible from the exterioir like the other side" and the rear gunmounts for this side of the ship


i have the barkassen and lifeboats of the bismarck wich i can modify too fit the look of the ones made for graf zeppelin

[Lukem]

Excellent!

A drydock scene would be good - how about a scene of her fitting-out at dock side?

[Archetype]

woudnt have planes on then
thats my issue :P

i think im going to do 2 scene;s

1 with drydock and it loading a plane or something like that and another at full sea

[Archetype]

added the walkway and the other stuff i told about earlier

next up the platforms. and some detailing on the openings like railings etc
click for highres
http://navalart.net/images/GZ_25_tn.jpg (http://navalart.net/images/GZ_25.jpg)

[Martocticvs]

She's going to look rather nice in an action scene when she's all finished...

[Niels]

Nice work jeroen! :eek:

[Archetype]

hey niels ! WB :)

stay this time will you :)

[Archetype]

added lifeboats/barkassen placed 37sk guns and spotlights near front
added the support struts for the platforms.
added the railing for the alchoves.

also coudnt resist playing with the shaders a bit

there are still some necersary fixxes though porthole gone wrong, rear support doestn connect
and i need to align the flight deck too the hull

http://www.navalart.net/images/GZ_26.jpg

[Martocticvs]

Ooh shiny!

[Skyraider3D]

Those life boats really add fantastic detail, mate! :)

[Archetype]

Added support struts for walkway "visible", forward lower platforms & boarding stairs.

fixed several mesh issues

http://www.navalart.net/images/GZ_27.jpg

[paddy237]

looks great....keep up the good work

[Lukem]

Awesome mate!

How about the big casemate guns - are they coming soon?:D

[Archetype]

i need too scan the references but i keep forgetting to bring them when i go too my parrents house