another King Tiger

[jiverson]

It started a few weeks ago when a friend of mine was looking at my artwork (all planes) and asked "do you ever do any tanks?" I said that I always liked the Tiger I and was thinking about doing an illustration featuring one. Well, his favorite was the Tiger II, in fact he has this great book on the Tiger II by Jentz & Doyle and he'd let me borrow it....
I just couldn't say no to the guy. So here I am building a King Tiger. It won't be as super-detailed as Luke, Gareth, Pioneer or Flakmonkeys!! I will be doing a lot with texture maps. But I do want to create a decent illustration featuring it.

So here goes.... my first real tank. The gray parts still need lots of work, but the turret is pretty well done except for the cupola. I do need to get my hands on a good 4-view though, as I didn't want to break my friends book by scanning it.
-Jamie

[kevjon]

Nice work Jamie !
Its coming along well, good to see your already started on the textures.

[jiverson]

Thanks Kevjon,
Yes, I did start the texturing on the roadwheels and track. I figured it made sense to get those items mapped before I started duplicating them. Plus, it's kinda fun to do some texturing to break up the modeling.
-Jamie

[kevjon]

it's kinda fun to do some texturing to break up the modeling

Totally agree.

[Caman0]

looks great so far!

Could i ask for a close-up render of the tracks?

[Lukem]

Excellent! So it's going to be a late Tiger II is it? I'm looking forward to seeing a very perculiar camo. scheme!

I'll see what I managed to scan for the cuppola - I had no option, so I ended up taking scans from 'that' book (I think we're talking about the same one) - I'll post what I took when I get home.

I'm looking forward to seeing more.

[digiartist]

Great start Jamie, texture maps can do so much for creating a convincing render. Sometimes it's easy to get bogged down in details that are never seen in the finished renders.
Have you thought about painting your late war King Tiger in an 'octopus scheme'?
Maybe only one example I think but it's a very unique look.
Anyway, yet another King Tiger thread to follow avidly:)

[Lukem]

Right then - all I have scanned is a cross-section through the cuppola - the rest I took from the plan view, side etc.

Here it is anyway - hope it helps!:)

[jiverson]

Caman0 - here's a view of the tracks. I kept them pretty simple and chose to do the most that I could with textures. I can't say they are the most accurate, but I dug through photos and the internet, so I hope they look ok. Luke's Tiger was a big help in sorting it out too.

Thanks Gareth! I don't know what the "octopus scheme" looks like. Sounds interesting...
Luke - thanks a bunch for the scan! I'll put that to use tonight!

[digiartist]

Jamie, the 'octopus scheme' was seen on an abandoned KT towards the end of the war. I think there's a pic of it at the back of the Jentz book. I dont have my copy handy but I'm sure its in there.
It's believed to be patches of dunkelgelb over a green basecoat with 'sucker marks' painted on the dunkelgelb. Here's an example of a model painted in this scheme - http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/articlepub/FCkoeingbuild.htm
Very unique and a bit different from the typical ambush scheme.

[jiverson]

This must be the beast eh? Very interesting scheme! Thanks for the link to the model article, that helps alot. Yes, I would like to do that one.
I think I'll need to make two versions though.
I was going for a Sept. '44 production version. Two link track, no zimmerit. I'll have to also create the late version to be accurate for this scheme.

Luke, your comment on the late war version had me stumped for a bit. I realize the rain gutter over the gunner port was only the late version right? I'll have to fix that for the earlier version.
-Jamie

[digiartist]

Yup, thats the photo I was talking about. Thats the beauty of doing a 3d model I suppose, just make a few detail and texture changes and you can represent a wide variety of vehicles from various fronts.
Btw, I meant to say your track textures look very effective:)

[Lukem]

There appeared to be lots of differences towards the end:-

Single link tracks, the aforementioned shield, triple link hangers on the turret and the 5 rings welded to each side of the turret.

I think it would look great in the 'octopus' scheme! I've seen somewhere a side vew of that colouring - if I've got it, I'll scan it in for you. BTW mine was a Sept. 44 version too!

[digiartist]

Luke, did they not do away with the aa mounting ring on the cupola as well towards the end?

[Lukem]

I think you could be right there Gareth.:D

[jiverson]

A few more details added tonight. Many more details to go...

[Spinner]

Thought of doing any of that fancy night vision stuff I see in the ref books?

[digiartist]

thats looking very good Jamie, you've certainly made fast progress on it!

Spinner, a King Tiger with IR gear would look well cool but unfortunately it was only fitted to a few Panthers and sdfkz251s at the end of the war:( .....could do a wehrmacht '46 render tho :D

[Spinner]

Damn! Ah well, realism beats cool here, so thats OK.
I doubt I've seen a pic of the gear in the field on anything. So it must've been rare. Probably grabbed by the ATIO boys pretty quickly too.

[Lukem]

Looking good mate! Very quick.

[jiverson]

Thanks guys! I didn't know I was quick, I always feel like I'm plodding along...
Hey Spinner, an IR King Tiger sounds very interesting... at the very least, there are plans in the Jentz/Doyle book for the July '45 version with internal range finder and other mods. That would be interesting.
I will finish this one first however...
-Jamie

[jiverson]

re: IR Tiger. How about an E-75? That would be cool huh? Anybody know where I could get a plan view of one of those??

[Caman0]

i have close ups of the IR equipment they used on panthers (UHU), if its the same, PM me and ill give you the drawings

[jiverson]

Well, I still have many small details to attend to, but I couldn't resist using this mesh in a project that I need to complete in the next couple of days.
So I jumped ahead and did some texturing.

[Spinner]

Damn this monitor. With that white background the shadow areas lose all detail for me.
Have to have another try at the gamma settings.

[digiartist]

yeah, it looks very dark to me as well......from what I can see though the textures look very nice! I also like the commmander pose looking up too.
Jamie, you might find some drawings of the E-75 in http://www.helion.co.uk/product.php?xProd=72850&xSec=1&jssCart=cb5a362065ba0d375041c5adaf73412a
I think it's mostly about the Maus and E-100 but it might cover some of the paper panzer projects.
Incidentally master tank modeller James Blackwell modelled an IR equiped E100. It's one of the best plastic tank builds I've seen and would be a cracker to model in 3d! - http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/jbe100.htm

[Spinner]

Yep a real cracker!

[jiverson]

Wow! Nice E-100!! Thanks for the links.
Sorry about the contrast of the image. The lighting will make more sense when you see it in the finished scene. I guess the screen on my laptop has a pretty wide gammut, I can see the details in the shadow areas on my screen.
-Jamie

[jiverson]

Well after much thrashing around, here's the result.
A King Tiger plus a few supporting characters...
I wanted to show the moment that a pair of Tempests have stumbled upon an armored column. The tank commander sees a flash over his shoulder and looks up to see the dreaded Allied fighters.

I tried hard to get all the elements to work together and integrate the models into the shot. I hope it all works! I took the background photos a few days ago on a bike path near my home. It seems funny now to see a panzer rumbling through the location.
-Jamie

p.s. - tried to lighten up the dark areas a bit. Hope all is more visible now.

[digiartist]

Very nice Jamie! I love the composition, there's a real sense of action behind it. Maybe you need to reduce the saturation in the blue shadows a bit, they seem a bit too vivid at the moment. Otherwise, great stuff and very fast work!

[kevjon]

That sure was quick. Cool illustration. I think the vehicles and planes look a little too clean and neat and could do with some weathering. The composition is great but does require you supporting text for the viewer to understand what the tempests are doing and why they aren't attacking.

[Spinner]

Like the variation between the two aircraft, flight path etc
Moving Panzers in daylight had become suicidal by then, as your comander is about to learn, so you've chosen a knotty scene to do. I like the moment of discovery idea, the impending action.
Kevjon has a point but a good title will carry enough info. 'Lost gamble', 'Discovered', or whatever.

[jiverson]

Thanks guys,
Glad you like it. You're right, I'll have to give it a title that helps convey the story.

I'll play around with the shadows a bit more too and work on the weathering. I needed to get it done by the 1st, so any weathering was done rather quickly. That doesn't mean I can't go back now and refine things a bit though.

It may be fast work, but it only works from this one camera angle...

-Jamie

[Lukem]

Nice image mate!

And I don't know if it's been said before...quick!

[krazycolin]

nice stuff... i like the contrast... needs dirt though.... and i like OOPS as a title.... :D:

[jiverson]

Thanks Luke and Colin,
I wanted to share a little how I assembled the image. Here is a scaled down background image that I took (note the shadows are quite blue). With my crappy digital camera, I had to splice two images together to get the needed resolution. I also brought a little scale tank with me when I was out shooting backgrounds. I shot it too, to help me visualize the shadows and lighting. The first time I've ever tried this, but I think it helped.
Thought maybe this might be of interest...
-Jamie

[Lukem]

Thanks for that mate!

[krazycolin]

that's a big model tank.... :D:

(i am kidding... i know you put the camera REALLY close...)

might have been better to take it a bit farther away... even if it's small.. you'd get a better idea of the light... good idea though

[jiverson]

Still plugging away at it. Adding details to the rear hull. Discovered some things not quite right with rear hull structure, so I'm doing some re-shaping (hence the floating parts). A few more bits and pieces before more work on engine deck.
-Jamie

[Lukem]

The question is, how detailed do you want to go?

From what I've seen (I don't know the names so please bear with me!) the lower towing eyes look too far removed from the hull back, and the top towing eyes (or at least the bits of metal they are attached to) could do with some work.

These are just my opinion; I want to see how this develops.

[digiartist]

I really like the idea of using a scale model as a reference point like that. Interesting to see how blue the shadows are in reality too. Maybe due to your model being panzer grey rather than dunkelgelb?

[jiverson]

I really like the idea of using a scale model as a reference point like that. Interesting to see how blue the shadows are in reality too. Maybe due to your model being panzer grey rather than dunkelgelb?
Thanks Gareth, you're right about the blue shadows, wish I had used a dunkelgelb reference subject. I really noticed it when I printed it out.

Here's some more progress with the back. How does this look?
-Jamie

[Skyraider3D]

Another KT?! :) We kan start www.kingtiger-meshes.com soon!
Nice model and a really nice composition. Lighting is a bit too contrasty perhaps and the Tempests look a bit fluid (too strong reflections). But the action, enhanced by the tank commander looking around, is great!

[Spinner]

Do you think you might have those C-hooks a bit too rounded?

[jiverson]

If anybody has a good C-hook reference, I would appreciate it! I searched all over for a good photo of the darn thing!

Thanks Skyraider! Yes, a bit contrasty, but the shot was almost into the sun. I will be making other more conventional beauty shots later.
-Jamie

[Spinner]

Well the only ones I found arent too clear but they do seem quite rounded. More than I expected.
They're on a diferent tank but its close to the same weight etc, so should be the same?

[Lukem]

They are probably the best photos I've seen of a C-hook Spinner - they shouldn't be too different on the Tigers.

Jamie: Have you still got the big book on King Tigers? There isn't much in there, but I couldn't find any better reference. Failing that, have a look at the file I've attached - sure it isn't perfect but it looks close enough to me.

Ronnie: We only need 41 more volunteer KT builders (and to persuade Pionier to lose the zimmerit) then we could stage a reenactment of the Ardennes offensive!

[jiverson]

Thanks Spinner & Luke! That helps very much indeed.
I don't have the big book anymore, had to return it...
The best reference I could find was on this page -
http://www.backyardarmor.com/Elite_Armor_Tamiya_King_Tiger_Detail_Parts.htm
not good I know...
-Jamie

[jiverson]

Tonight I feel like a tailor!
Hey, what's a King Tiger without a crew?
Here is the stock C4D otto getting all dressed up to drive a tank...
-Jamie

[jiverson]

A bit more progress with the crew figure...

[Lukem]

Good ol' Otto!

The headphones look good especially. What are you using as reference?

[jiverson]

Thanks Luke! Yeah ol' Otto does everything, flys planes, drive tanks... what a guy.
I don't have any super detail pics of the headphone. Just what I can gleen from photos and this one I found on the net.

[jiverson]

Here's an update. Those panzer uniforms were really something weren't they? Black with pink piping... who thought that one up?

[digiartist]

looking good! Are you going to add a bit of deformation to the sleeves just to break up the smoothness a bit?

[jiverson]

Thanks Gareth,
Yes, I plan on adding more wrinkles after I get the shape right. I plan on doing a variety of different figures, so this will be my base figure.

[jiverson]

Not a very exciting update. Just realized that my figure needs gloves...
I will add more wrinkles once satisfied with the shape.
-Jamie

[jiverson]

Probably should show a KT in this thread...
Updated rear details. I hope this C-hook looks better.
Thanks Luke!!

[Spinner]

Looks good to me.
It all looks pretty damn good, in fact.
:cool:

[Lukem]

Looking good to me too! Keep going!

[jiverson]

I have the basic figure down. Now I just need to texture map him and give him a personality. Since I won't be doing animation, I will just build different poses rather than messing with bones and such.

[jiverson]

Still working on the KT too!
Texturing with Body Paint is almost fun, even more so once I figure out what I'm doing. Very different from aircraft!

The one thing I run up against is how neat to make the maps. In bodypaint I can run the wizard and have instant angle mapping or cubic mapping. I can then grab a brush and start painting on the object in 3d. Very Cool!!
However, I'm really good with photoshop, but in bodypaint, I feel like I'm wearing boxing gloves. So this is very much a learning project. Can't wait until I get it nailed and can start painting color, bump and whatever else all at the same time.

In the screenshot you can see where I've started with the default angle mapping and have begun to group together the larger chunks. Yes, the interactive mapping function is my best friend right now!

How do you other tankers do it??
-Jamie

[Spinner]

I have the basic figure down. Now I just need to texture map him and give him a personality. Since I won't be doing animation, I will just build different poses rather than messing with bones and such.

He's looking great.
One thing that struck me recently, looking through period pics, is that in every shot the tanker crews had their shirt collars buttuned up. Even east front in field pics show a consistancy that leads me to think there may have been strict dress regs.
So many pics are PR or staged it's hard to be sure but I can conceive some officer putting you on a charge for having your tie undone, while you starved in Stalingrad.

[jiverson]

Hi Spinner,
That's interesting. I can't argue that one way or another. But here is a photo I've been using as a guide. This will be the look I'm going for.
-Jamie

[Spinner]

Yes, thats certainly more what I'd expect. I've always understood heat as an issue inside fighting vehicles and the allied tankers in Nth Africa were usually far beyond 'casual'.
I just read the Concord Panther book and the collar and tie thing just popped up from its pages. Must admit its not known as the most accurate work though. Other authors have called it on its IR information, for instance.
Certainly your pic has a great feel. Those guys look serious.

[jiverson]

There is a nice 4 part King Tiger walk-around photo album here:
http://news.webshots.com/album/554246097pXawlU
Wish I had found it a few months ago! Shows lots of little details that I haven't found elsewhere.

[jiverson]

Ok, this post is not the least bit exciting. I went back and started over with arranging the mapping. This time I broke it down into more logical elements. I'm finally coming to grips with some of Bodypaints tools. Works pretty darn well once you get the hang of it! Soon the real fun will begin...

[Spinner]

Thanks,
Our Mr Trowbridge seems to have quite a few usefull armor pics up.