Me 262 "Red 13"

[jiverson]

Thought I would post this Me 262 I've been working on. For some reason the pilot and cockpit are really dark. I still need to sort that out.
-Jamie

[Martocticvs]

That could be down to the material settings for the glass, or just the render settings... post screenshots of them if you like and I'll look and see if there's anything obvious (the obvious things are always the ones you miss!)

[kevjon]

Looks great so far Jamie. Cool choice of color scheme...."Heinz Bar's" aircraft.....same one I chose for my Me262. There aren't any clear photos of this aircraft so it is a bit hard to tell exactly what camouflage pattern was on it but I like your interpretation.

Its probably too late since you've uv mapped it but you've also missed the bump on the cannon cover hatch...same as me.

[Spinner]

Its probably too late since you've uv mapped it but you've also missed the bump on the cannon cover hatch...same as me.

Is that whats missing? I'm no 262 expert, but couldnt put my finger on what felt off with the forward fuse.
Nice.

[jiverson]

Thanks guys,
I'll check those material settings.
Yes, only two known photos of Heinz Bär's "Red 13", so the details are a bit sketchy. So this is based on the photos, some of the work of others and a lot of advise from people who have studied Luftwaffe camouflage much more than I have.
About the bump on the cannon covers. Some 262s had them, some didn't.
-Jamie

[Skyraider3D]

About the bump on the cannon covers. Some 262s had them, some didn't.A-2a versions probbaly didn't then, cause they only had two cannon. But the A-1a had four and without the bump I doubt the panel would close...

For some reason the nose on your model looks really pointy and the cockpit too big. May just be the perspective.

The RLM 81 colour is a bit too grey, by the way. It's a pity we don't have KevJon's thread on his 262 anymore as we had an extensive colour discussion there. Kevin, could you perhaps post the topview render of your 262 please? I think we got those colours pretty nailed in the end.

[Lukem]

Thats spot on mate! I've not seen a fighter version 262 without those bumps.

Strangely enough, Red 13 is a popular subject - I did a drawing for my Dad one year, which still hangs on the wall. That's got the bumps too.... I believe it's also the subject of a book cover too.

[kevjon]

Jamie

Working with Skyraider on my first 3D aircraft model. This is what we came up with for the camo which is largely based on factory applied finishes. It is possible Heinz's aircraft was painted in the field differently. Certainly the photos that do exist show quite mottled camo on the fuselage but it is hard to tell as the photos are not that clear and a bit distant.

[jiverson]

About the bump question...
I'm not sure if all A-2a's had smooth gun covers. But there is evidence of A-1a's having smooth covers as well. The most famous example is Mutke's 262 in the Deutsches Museum. It raises the question of why the bumps were needed in the first place... To be honest, I haven't studied if there is a correlation between Werknummer blocks and gun cover bumps. There may be. I have noticed that the bumps are often invisible in photos at times. So it can be a difficult thing to investigate.
Regarding "Red 13", the copies of the side view photo that I have seen are inconclusive. So in this case I suppose it is purely speculative. But from the reaction here, I may as well include them.

[Skyraider3D]

Hmmm... interesting. The profile artist of the Me 262 Classic series didn't include the bump either. Maybe they bulged the whole panel instead? The clearance required is minimal anyway.

[digiartist]

Lovely looking aircraft and a very nice model indeed. Regarding the camo scheme of red 13, interestingly the colours long thought to be green and brown have now been suggested to be light\dark grey. Just thought I'd muddy the waters even further :)

[jiverson]

Skyraider - I have noticed that Tullis didn't really include the bumps on anything in the Classic series until Vol. 4. Even though the bumps are sometimes obviously visible in the accompanying photos! Those darn bumps...

[jiverson]

Kevjon - you're 262 is really great. You need to create more finished scenes with that one! I did read through your thread a few times on the old MM. You sure did a great job with it!

Digiartist - Thank you, high praise indeed!
Regarding the grays vs greens, I guess it comes down to who is making this determination and how they arrived at their conclusions. I have it on good account that this Schwäbisch-Hall built Me 262 (WNr.110559) wears a "late transitional scheme" of colours 81 Braunviolett and 82 Hellgrün (WNr. block 110548-110570). (This is from a source that I very much trust).

Well, here is a comparison of colors. I scanned in the chips included in Luft Camouflage and Markings Vol.2. It shows that mine is a bit too red, not too gray. Yes, looks like you've got it right on Kev.

As a side note, I had based my colors somewhat on RLM 61 & 62 which were available in the earlier LC&M Vol. 1. (before Vol 2. came out) There is some relationship between 61, 62 and 81,82 although you can see in these examples 61 is more reddish than 81.
-Jamie

[kevjon]

Interesting discussion about the bumps. I studied a lot of WWII era photos during the modelling of my 262 and on nearly all photos...I couldn't see any bumps either. That was the reason I chose not include them but someone pointed out to me they do exist. Anyway easier to model the aircraft without them and your probably right that on some they do exist and others they don't.

Thanks for confirming my camo colors. It shows how good skyraiders eye is with such things as he really helped a lot in getting these colors as accurate as possible.

Digiartist comment is an interesting one to as I have seen Red 13 depicted in those colors also. I noticed that Tamiya chose to release Red 13 as a Grey/Green scheme. Heinz Bar's aircraft is certainly a controversal one amongst the experts.

Posted by jiverson
You need to create more finished scenes with that one!
I'm working on my P51 at the moment so if I ever finish it, I will definitely be doing some renders with my 262. Also have the basic shape of a B26 done which is another aircraft that goes well with the 262. So working on it but will be a while as there is a lot to do.

I would like to upgrade the rear cockpit area (behind the pilots seat) on my 262. Do you have any photos or reference of how that actually looked. If so could you email me. Address is in my members profile.

[Skyraider3D]

I would like to upgrade the rear cockpit area (behind the pilots seat) on my 262. Do you have any photos or reference of how that actually looked.Not much to upgrade there as it's pretty much a T-bar and a couple of holes :)
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Me262/7718.html
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Me262/7623.html


PS. This is the 262 of the Deutsches Museum on which Kevin and I based the colours. I believe the restorers got their colours spot-on on this one. If you're ever in München, do visit the Deutsches Museum. It's fantastic, even if you don't like planes, as they have a lot more! :)


PPS. Look! Four cannon and no bulges - but they did damage the door when closing it! ;)
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Me262/5852.html


PPPPPPPS. Two more pics from the USA:
http://www.cybermodeler.net/aircraft/me262/images/nasm_me262_24.jpg
http://www.cybermodeler.net/aircraft/me262/images/nasm_me262_06.jpg
(rather vivid colours on this one!)

[kevjon]

Thanks Skyraider. I do need to add that detail onto my 262 now that I know what it looks like. Photos are perfect.

[jiverson]

Here is what "White 3" looked like when it landed in Switzerland. I think I remember reading that it was unusual because it was painted in 82/83...
The red dots on the engines are also interesting.

[jiverson]

Here's my updated colors. I like these better. I think they agree with the Merrick chips and Kevjons efforts.

[Skyraider3D]

Perhaps darken the green ever so slightly, but otherwise you're there :)

[Baron]

Here is what "White 3" looked like when it landed in Switzerland. I think I remember reading that it was unusual because it was painted in 82/83...
The red dots on the engines are also interesting.

hmm... to me it looks like RLM 81/82, but maybe my eyes just want to see that. The picture was taken after the swiss army made some additions on the camouflage. The light blue wave between the upper and lower camouflage colour is not original german.

Cheers

[jiverson]

Here's an update.
I tried darkening the 82, but it just didn't look quite right. It was a better color match to the chip, but the contrast between the 81 seemed too low.
See what you all think...
-Jamie

[kevjon]

That looks pretty good to me. Nice work.

[digiartist]

Excellent stuff Jamie!

[Skyraider3D]

Looks good to me! :)

[Lukem]

Superb mate! I like the pilot BTW.

[Skyraider3D]

I like the pilot BTW.Me too! .

[Spinner]

Very nice indeed!

Reading a paper on conservation of technology large objects by the senior man at the aussie war memorial, when I noticed this little bit.

"The Australian War Memorial has several aircraft of German origin. During the pre conservation condition survey it was noticed that the aluminium was coated with a grey blue oxide coating. This has tentatively been identified as an alkaline Chromate conversion coating of Modified Bayer Vogel variety (10, 11, 12,) Treatment was then formulated to take this into consideration. Preservation work on similar aircraft in the United States did not, (5, 6,) resulting in loss of the aluminium's oxide coating. This removal will certainly confuse scholars in the future and could be viewed as unethical by some conservators at present. But without conservation input into the treatment development in this area there were no real options."

Thought some might find it interesting?
Conservation Paper (http://rsc.anu.edu.au/~hallam/approach.html)

[jiverson]

Thanks guys, that means a lot coming from this bunch:D
Guess the extra time spent on the pilot was worth it!

Spinner, thanks for the info on the aluminum coating. It's interesting to see how the preservation of aviation artifacts has changed through the years. I'm glad that they've kept the paint on their 262. It may not look pretty, but it sure has an interesting story to tell.
-Jamie

[pATREUS]

I thought this link would be interesting addition to this thread

Recently restored Me262 flying at ILA2006, Berlin (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7620890100890480)

Excellent model by the way!

[Supah]

I believe that is not a restored original but more a replica :) They built some VERY good replica's in the last few years in america :)

[jiverson]

For more info about the Me 262 Project at Legend Flyers, look here:
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

The first two aircraft have been delivered. "White 1" belongs to Judge Werner in Arizona, the 2nd is "Tango-Tango" and was delivered to the Messerschmitt Foundation this summer.

The Collings Foundation has announced their interest in aircraft #3. This aircraft will be group owned. Seats are going for 25,000 each. So if you have the cash and would like to fly an Me 262, now is your chance to sign up!

Oh, and the former Planes of Fame Me 262 is now in England being re-built to flying status. It is now owned by a certain Microsoft VP.