Royal Navy Type 23 HMS Westminster

[Suricata]

For many years now I've been playing around with making the HMS Westminster in 3d. Many models have come and gone as I've improved my skills and techniques, but I now believe I'm at a level where I can do the girl justise, so I thought I'd share my progress here.

I've decided to model her in as modern a state as possable, which is proving quite interesting as shes had several refits since I served on her, so there are quite alot of new features that have been added to what I remember.

So far I've spent about 10 hours on the mesh. I'm just trying to get the main superstructure shape blocked out right now. The hull is almost finished, although I need to make a few tweaks on the bow sonar as well as model the quarter deck and add the new 'spoiler' shes been fitted with.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render1.jpg

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render2.jpg

[charlyecho]

good start so far.
what's your goal ? static render or videos ?
can't wait for armament modelisation.

Charly

[Suricata]

I have no particular goal other than having a high detail model of my old ship. I'll probably set her up so she can be used in videos though.

Started to add screen doors, as well as the SCOTT domes, VLSW silo, and bridge windows.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render5.jpg

[maxyang]

i can see the details you have done, very nice. keep the work going

[Suricata]

Been working on the Harpoon missile system today, I think I have them about right now. Also rendered a close up of the 30mm as well. Think I'll look at the Seaboats next, not sure what the type is called, I know they used to use Pacific 22's but not sure what the new RIB's the Type 23's have been fitted with are called (maybe Pacific 28's?). The new davets seem more practical than the older one though (and hopefully more reliable!), anyway, enough rambling.... :-)

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render7.jpg

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render8.jpg

[maxyang]

yummy, i like both your style and the increasing detail

what happened to the edges, on the funnel and every other places? the color seems leaking. I guess you make thin walls but not join them together. Different software use different terms, but what I mean is that your sides are not one piece. The rendering algorithm will have a hard time around the corners

[Suricata]

The edges are because I have the render set to draft quality, I just need to up the settings slightly and adjust the shadow settings a bit.

[simyevil]

great details i like it this looking
keep on

[Suricata]

Done some work on the ships Seaboats (Pacific 24's), I need to increase the poly count a little bit on them as there is some pretty bad segmentation on them right now. Also created the new davets for them as well.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render16.jpg

[John Marchant]

Nice work there mate, cant wait to see the completed work. Pacific 24, well shows how out of date i am with her. Nice ship and nice looking model as well.

[John Marchant]

PS, What are you using for reference do you have plans of Westminster now.

[Suricata]

I used the side view of the ship I drew years ago for the proportions, as well as 'alot' of photos which I've been measuring to try and get the proportions right. I'm probably going to give her the Artisan 3D radar instead of the 996, since she'll most likely get fitted with it in a couple of years anyway.

It's really alot of fun making this model, brings back loads of memories! :-)

Working on the RAS winches right now, as well as the lifeboats, will post some updates tomorrow once I have them modeled properly.

[John Marchant]

Good to see mate, look forward to the updates

[Suricata]

Been doing a bit more work on her. Added the RAS winches and lifeboats, also tweaked a few proportions.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/render27.jpg

I'm having issues with the renders though, as you can see on the mainmast and SCOTT domes there is something wierd going on with the shading at the edges. I'm using the mental ray renderer with raytraced shadows and final gatherer. I've tryed altering so many things now, including the materials with no success, does anyone have any ideas what could be causing it as I've never seen it before? It's driving me nuts!

[John Marchant]

Not sure how it works in max mate, i would check smoothing level, also check that they are triangles or quads, i think max likes triangles. Is there such a thing as normal correction in max but i would also look at where your normals are pointing.

I no very little about mentalray so could not comment there.

I assume that the 2050 bow dome is just temporary at the moment.

[Suricata]

Yeah, the bow dome is a bit squashed right now, I'm still playing around with the hull's shape, right now its still in 2 halves not even joined yet. I keep trying to motivate mtself to finish off the bow dome and get the quarterdeck (smoking deck!) done, since they are probably the hardest areas to model.

[Suricata]

Spent a little time working on the Seawolf 911 Tracker, it was an absolute pain to model, mainly as I only had photos and no plans of it. I tried to make the SWMLU version (with the infra-red camera). I've also started messing around with the ladders and guard rails. Also added the DLF(3) countermeasures.

I realised I have the wrong 30mm on the model as well, I currently have the original 30mm DS30B on there, which have now been replaced with the 30mm DS30M Mark 2, so I'll be making the alterations to the gun.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render31.jpg

[John Marchant]

Very nice indeed, i can see she has changed since the last time i was on her. Glad you are not modeling the interior or god knows what will have changed

[Suricata]

It's actually been alot of fun looking for referance material of her. It's brought a smile to my face seeing some of the upgrades she's recieved, although I'm annoyed at myself for not going to Navy Days last year to actualy pay her a visit! I'd love to get onboard her again for a proper tour (not one of the crappy ones they give at Navy Days).

I'm still pondering a few features (such as the Artisan radar which she will eventually recieve) as well as some chaff/flare launchers that I've seen on some of the other Type-23's just behind the forward Seawolf tracker (I'm assuming they are chaff/flare launchers atleast). I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of her with them there, although more recent pictures seem to suggest they were removed. Image attached

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/chaff.jpg

[John Marchant]

Thing is mate, there will forever be changes, in all of them, also equipment used and then removed because there were limited amounts of them or they were no good, id pick one up to date picture and stay with that.

Looks great though

[Suricata]

Done some work on the Vickers 4.5" Mod1 gun. Still need to add the spent shell ejection port on it.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render32.jpg

[John Marchant]

Coming along nicely mate.

[simyevil]

nice update ;)

[Suricata]

Doen a bit more work on her this morning, added RAS lights, HFF whips, 1007 and 1008 radars, port/starboard navigation lights and tweaked some of the guard rails.

I tried to add the warning labels onto the VLSW, but they seem a tad to dark, so I'll probably alter them. I'm also not 100% sure what colour the 911 tracekrs should be, I've seen them in standard navy grey, but I also think I've seen them in the same colour as the Satcoms, anyone know what colour they actually are? The photo referances are hard to tell.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render34.jpg

[John Marchant]

They used to be the same as the satcom, that sort of duck egg green, but who knows maybe it has changed now.

[Suricata]

Thats what I thought, I'll leave them the duck egg blue for now, adds a bit more colour to the ship :)

[John Marchant]

Well not like you cant change it in a jiffy is it. Have a look where the side meets the deck on the stbd side just fwd of the 4.5 gun in the last picture, bit of a shadow there, might need some looking at.

[Suricata]

The deck is just temperary atm. The hull still needs finishing but I've been putting it off as I know the quarterdeck area is going to give me a headache! I have a small list of things I want to do and the hull keeps getting pushed down. Maybe I should just finish it this weekend so its done! (I can make your sonar then as well).

I'm also pondering making a low poly type 45 as well ;-)

[John Marchant]

Sounds good mate, but the detail you are putting into the Westminster probably means that will be for way in the future.

[Suricata]

Been doing some more work on her today. Added the ships crest below the bridge, also removed the covers off the Seawolf cannisters. I noticed that the DLF(3) is a bit too long and is clipping into the captains quaters, so I'll have to fix that :-)

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render40.jpg

Also done some work on the ships mast. Added the THORN, ships horns, mast ladders, aft steaming lights, masthead obstruction lights as well as the Artisan radar (which she hasn't been fitted with yet, but undoubtidly will in the future).

I did some research and noticed that the equipment I mentioned earlier in the thread that I thought maybe a type of chaff/flare launcher is still on the ship, as the photos I have show the mount still there. So I'll get them modeled soon, although it's kind of wierd modeling them as they are probably the only thing on the ships exterior that I don't know what they are! I also considered if they could be some type of mortor launcher as well.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render41.jpg

[simyevil]

wonderful details i like it

[Suricata]

A quick video showing the radars in operation :-)

Type 23 radar test animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUDFySP0yUs)

The radars are all rotating at the correct RPM's, although I need to tweak the frames of the animation so that it loops smoothly :-)

[John Marchant]

She is coming on a treat mate, Artisan radar well never heard of it, but if some have got it and its not just a trail piece well why not put it on.

[Suricata]

The Artisan 3D is what they will be putting on the new aircraft carriers, the Albion and Bulwark and the Type 23 fleet to replace the 996 radar. It should start getting fitted to ships this year, I'd assume the ships that have yet to recieve thier VLSW update will get the Artisan update at the same time, so Westminster will most likely get it during her next major refit in a couple of years.

You can read more about it here:-

Artisan 3D (http://www.baesystems.com/Sites/SAS/ProductServices/MaritimeC4I/ArtisanRadar/index.htm)

It has already been installed at the test facilities on the Isle of Wight last year, so it's only a matter of time :-)

[John Marchant]

Looks interesting, you obviously have kept up with these sorts of things.

[charlyecho]

interesting mate.
Radars anims are great. For my slava I don't find a lot of references of radars RPM. So good work ;-)
I check the thread every day

cheers
charly

[John Marchant]

As a rough rule of thumb, the longer the range the slower the rpm, nav radars tend to rotate fast than long range search radars, this does not always apply but its a guide

[Suricata]

From what I could see with British radars, search radars are usually in the 20-30RPM range, with navigational raders been at around 60RPM. For obvious reasons, the shorter the range, the more accurate the information you need, thus the higher RPM.

For the Slava class (from looking at videos of her), the search radar has an rotation of about 5RPM, with the nav radars rotating at around 30RPM, although you'll find that alot of search radars have variable rotation speeds depending on the range the ship is focasing on (short-medium-long).

[Suricata]

Started doing some work on the focsle, still need to tweak the very front to be more rounder, as well as add the anchors.

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render44.jpg

Also made the SeaGnat launchers and ammo lockers. I'll be adding the other launchers to the roof tomorrow. I'm wondering if they are SIREN ADR launchers, since I've seen mention of them been added to RN ships as they are more effective than the SeaGnat countermeasures. Shame we don't have more RN personal on these forums :-)

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render46.jpg

Also fixed the length of the DLR(3) and made a display stand for the ship as well :-)

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render48.jpg

[John Marchant]

Very nice indeed mate, like the stand, now all you need is a glass case around it, or maybe put it in a bottle, Lol

Got a bit of segmentation on the bridge roof breaker, or curvy thing, the one like the 3 on the hangar roof, dont know what they were called.

Also im not sure but there seems to be a scale problem on the focsle. Either the bollards, breakwater and such are to big or the whole of the bow is to small, its very noticeable on the first picture, well its looks big compared to what i remember

[simyevil]

nice looking & very good details really
but u need 2change the background ok

keep on & good luck

[Suricata]

Very nice indeed mate, like the stand, now all you need is a glass case around it, or maybe put it in a bottle, Lol

Got a bit of segmentation on the bridge roof breaker, or curvy thing, the one like the 3 on the hangar roof, dont know what they were called.

Also im not sure but there seems to be a scale problem on the focsle. Either the bollards, breakwater and such are to big or the whole of the bow is to small, its very noticeable on the first picture, well its looks big compared to what i remember

I still need to tweak the breakers, from what I remember when climbing over them, they were actually segmented, but they do need some smoothing on the model still.

The scale problem in the thorn in my side right now, since I have no plans to work off, so I'm doing it all by eye, which is a shame as it means that all the work I'm putting into her is not actually as accurate as it could be!

I think I'll try to find some more referance material (or maybe even buy the jacobin plans) before I proceed much futher, so I don't have to alter everything as much!

[John Marchant]

I still need to tweak the breakers, from what I remember when climbing over them, they were actually segmented, but they do need some smoothing on the model still.

The scale problem in the thorn in my side right now, since I have no plans to work off, so I'm doing it all by eye, which is a shame as it means that all the work I'm putting into her is not actually as accurate as it could be!

I think I'll try to find some more referance material (or maybe even buy the jacobin plans) before I proceed much futher, so I don't have to alter everything as much!

Talk to toffmeister around here he may be able to help you with reference material. I think she is fairly accurate mate, the little bits and stuff you have done are ok, its probably the superstructure and or hull may need tweaking a bit so at least its the easy bits.

I will PM you

[Suricata]

So, I've been going over the mesh with the plans, and I'm really chuffed that almost all the mesh is accurate! The only area that needed tweaking was the bow, the bridge is about 50cm to far forward, so all the rest of the equipment on the bow is a bit to far forward as well. The Vickers 4.5" was 10cm to short as well and the SeaGnats were 40cm out of place.

Overall I'm amazed how close I managed to model everything from all the referance photos I was using, although in all fairness, I put the photos into 3dsmax and modeled over them, so it should of been close anyway, but its really made my day knowing that I don't have to make to many difficult alterations! :-)

[John Marchant]

Well done mate, like i said it seemed pretty good and accurate up to the Bow. Cant wait to see it finished

[Suricata]

Not a huge update, just a render to show the bow of the ship now it's been adjusted to fit the blueprints. It looks alot better now (to me atleast!).

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render49.jpg

[simyevil]

wall done Suricata
keep going

[John Marchant]

Looking good mate, the bow still seems to have a mesh smoothing error or something going on there

[maxyang]

i like your color and style. though there are more details can be added, you kept it at the a good level. excellent work

[echo419]

I would love to see some shots of the bow with respect to the plans. I'm having some trouble closing mine... accurately.

lovely model!

Echo

[Suricata]

Been doing a bit more work on her, started work on the hanger and also started cutting out the quarterdeck (aka smoking area). Also modeled the towed sonar array. The poly count is starting to make the model a bit more of a strain to work on, but I'm still ploughing forwards!

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render55.jpg

I'll get a render of the wireframe sorted out to show how the hull looks. Basically I just extruded a spline to get the rough shape, then boxed modeled the vague shape of the bow sonar, then applied a meshsmooth modifier to smooth it all out. I'm sure there are prettier ways to do it, but it sufficed.

I need to make a bump map for the main texture to simulate the slight warping of metal of the hull, the great thing is any of the minor imperfections of the hull give that slight effect as well, so once the texture is applied it should work quite well.

[John Marchant]

Hi mate,

Looks good, have a look at the refs for the hangar seems a little small and offset to the left, im sure it was fairly central

[cobra6]

For some reason it seems I have completely missed this one.... I really like the model and all the detailing so far. Also, the miniature depiction looks convincing :)

Cobra 6

[Argyll]

The paintwork is too flat and the white background isn't doing anything for your model in fact it's harming it. I think you'd be better off with either a sky background or a mid grey, but that's a personal view I'm not getting any impressions of reality with this model.

[Suricata]

Absolutly aggree Argyll, I've been having quite alot of issues with the lighting rig for this model for some reason. The shadows have not been working as I'd wanted and I've been getting wierd shading artifacts thatmake no sence. My guess is I need to rescale the model since I'm using photometric lights.

The material's themselves arn't that bad, I'm happy with thier base settings,although I definatly need to add some noise to them as well as add a slight bump mapto give the impression of metal plating that has warped over time. I think the main issue is the lighting rig right now, I'll probably delete it all and start again.

Thanks for the feedback Argyll :-)

[Argyll]

In 3ds max I'd use a daylight system and/or a skylight that uses a (bluish) HDRI map, which is I suspect what a lot of guys here use. The photometric lights I'd keep for architectural or other interiors as they are not all that good for exteriors as their colour temperature is usually too low. A smoke map in the Diffuse (and Bump channel) can work wonders for the appearance of steel (but is easily overdone) which is never totally flawless. To enhance the shadows try turning on ambient occlusion and if your model is real size, set it to 200mm or higher for the main model material. Grunge maps in the Glossiness channel give some interesting effects for specular highlights.
BTW, photometric lights need everything to be real size and in an enclosed space so that the photons have something to bounce off apart from your model and for this type of work they are not a good idea.

[Suricata]

Spent a few hours reading up on the lighting and material suggestions you gave me Argyll. So far the materials have most of the settings you suggested already, although I know I need to adjust a bump maps a bit more which I have added.

I've added a daylight system now (never seen it before as I never used the drop down menu where it was located!). Also made an AO material for the scene as well. So now I make 2 passes, 1 with regular materials and 1 with the AO material, and then I just overlaid them in photoshop. Very happy with the result, so thankyou very much for the feedback Argyll, now I can see the details which were frustratingly been lost in my previous renders!

http://suricatasblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/render60.jpg

Please note this render was done at 'draft' quality.

[John Marchant]

Yeah she looks allot better mate.

[Argyll]

Looking a whole lot better already mate. Ambient occlusion can be turned on inside all of the materials (Architectrual & Design - A&D - materials) so you don't have to do an AO pass and mess around inside Photoshop though that's a good technique, but not strictly necessary. In your bump slot, try adding a smoke map and add your main paint colour in both slots and darkening one of them. To get a metal look, however, click (tick) on Metal Material in the Reflection frame, turn IOR up to 25 (trust me) and in the BRDF frame select 'By IOR (fresnel Reflections),' which will give you an odd looking Reflectivity Versus Angle curve, which is what you need for metal. You'll need to play around with the Reflectivity and Glossiness values; also, you'll have to play around with smoke setting (both Size and Exponent) to get the right look as it's effect on metal is dependent on the size of your model.
BTW, a Noise map (in the Bump slot) works really well when trying to give metal that textured finish you see when it's painted. If your model is not real size you'll need a pretty small value that, I wouldn't be surprised, will be 0.1 or (probably) less.
The attached image shows the effect light has on the material. The three planes have the same material applied (mostly just Smoke), but have a different look depending on the angle they have to the sun.

[John Marchant]

Any updates Mate

[Suricata]

Afraid not, back at uni again so my time is limited right now. However, easter holidays are coming up soon, so I expect to get some more work done on her then. I'd really like to finish the model before the MoD decides to sell her to Chile! :-)

[John Marchant]

Afraid not, back at uni again so my time is limited right now. However, easter holidays are coming up soon, so I expect to get some more work done on her then. I'd really like to finish the model before the MoD decides to sell her to Chile! :-)

Well the way things are going mate you better be quick. Glad your still around anyway, im looking forward to trying to convert it to LW

[Suricata]

Been a while since I've worked on this model, but managed to find a couple of days to do a bit more work on her! Added the Optical finders for the 30mm's, the Antenna whips on the funnels, the Antenna's on the bridge wings, the TV aerials and the windscreen wipers!

http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Render65.jpg
http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Render66.jpg
http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Render67.jpg

I really need to finish the rear of the Pacific 24's. I Really want to finish the rear mast as well, then I can get to the finer details :-)

[John Marchant]

Very nice indeed mate I'm glad your back on her

[Suricata]

Moving along slowly, modeled the Searchlights, the Deisel Air Intakes and the Sea Archer 30 (GSA 8). It's starting to get to the point where new additions are harder to spot :-P

http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Render76.jpg

http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Render78.jpg

I'm aware that the forward island is not meeting with the deck properly yet! :-)

[Nils]

She looks already a killer! Lovely work!

[John Marchant]

Still looks good, are you going to do the guardrails, stantions, bollards, cleats and guttering.Picky but they will certainly take the poly count up a bit :):):):). I think the RN still owns this one.

[Suricata]

Still looks good, are you going to do the guardrails, stantions, bollards, cleats and guttering.Picky but they will certainly take the poly count up a bit :):):):). I think the RN still owns this one.

Yup, fully intending to model guttering, guardrails, vents, bollards, upperdeck lighting etc, not sure if I'll be adding the pre-wetting system or not yet, think that will depend how my PC is holding up when I get to that point ;)

Been considering modeling some of the bridge interior as well, this is more relevent for shots in at dusk/dawn when the bridge lighting will be more obvious.

[John Marchant]

When you get down to that level the poly count will rise substantially, how many polys at the moment and what version of max are you using

[Suricata]

Currently at 806,232 polys, using 3dsmax 2011 (Hopefully getting 2012 soon, as well as Dreamscape if I'm lucky!). Expecting the poly count to easily hit atleast 2,000,000 when shes all done. I'm expecting the tannoys to cause a significant jump in polys, sicne I'm modeling the wiring on them as well.

I'm aiming to add bones to the model so all the guns and trackers can move and track accuratly, then I'm planning on making some movies with it for my showreel.

I'm actually starting a new module right now at uni and might be able to use this model for it, so I'm hoping to get alot more time available for this model in the coming weeks (fingers crossed).

[John Marchant]

That poly count is pretty decent actually, i would have guesed a bit morebut yes its the small stuff that will make it climb.

Funny is was thinking of nulls and sliders in Lightwave for this, you just make a null the target and wherever the null goes the guns point in that direction, you can restrain it so it does not go through and superstructure or impossible angle.

Look forward to seeing more mate.

[Suricata]

Funny is was thinking of nulls and sliders in Lightwave for this, you just make a null the target and wherever the null goes the guns point in that direction, you can restrain it so it does not go through and superstructure or impossible angle.


Need to read into it a bit more, but that sounds similar to whatI was thinking, just need to set up the pivot points on the trackers and guns to work with it. Planning on finishing the modeling first before I get distracted by that kind of stuff :-P

[John Marchant]

Yes the pivot points, orientation and restrictions on movement are important. If the poly count gets to high i think you can use xrefs if max has that" similar to grouping and layers in objects in LW.

Look forward to the update and seeing the animation when its finished

[Suricata]

Yes the pivot points, orientation and restrictions on movement are important. If the poly count gets to high i think you can use xrefs if max has that" similar to grouping and layers in objects in LW.

Look forward to the update and seeing the animation when its finished

Already have everything in layers, its the only thing that makes working on the mesh bareable :-P

Found out this week that the Artisan Radar (which is going to be designated 997) will start to get fitted to the Type 23's next year, starting with HMS Iron Duke during her next refit. :-)