3D Software

[charglerode]

Hey everybody. I want to start this topic because I want to hear everybody's honest opinion about their experiences with the different 3d software packages out there. The reason I'm curious about this is because I am looking to find a "really" good package to use. Currently I use Cinema 4D demo and, for the most part, I like it's UI and tools. However, the price is somewhat expensive for a hobby. I initially started with Max but I could never find my way around very well. I have also fiddled with the free packages like Blender, but there are some serious issues with the usability for me so I dropped it quick.

My main objective here is to find a good package that I can use for a relatively reasonable price. I am strictly a modeller, I do not animate nor do I want to so I want something with excellent modelling tools. Something that has good UV unwrapping capabilities and/or can produce stunning procedural textures. A default renderer is necessary. I would also like to the ability to create hair, cloth, particles, but these are merely secondary. I have played with a lot of the demos, but I have found it hard to get acclimated to most of them.

Anyway, tell me about your experiences, which packages you use and why you've chosen it.

Thanks, I really appreciate everybody in this forum and all you guys do.

[kiwi123]

Hi, I think with what you are saying, price and modelling, there are two obvious choices. XSI and MODO. Both are good for what you are looking for. Cloth and hair always come at a price no matter what choice you make (at least, if you want to have a good quality).
As secondary alternatives you could look at Maya and Lightwave.

[krazycolin]

i would have to agree with Kiwi. Modo and, certainly XSI are well known for their "prowess" in the modelling arena. though i have never used modo (i HATE modeling), I've heard only good things about it (when it comes to modelling). XSI does stand out as one of the better modelers today... for polys anyway...

[Lukem]

I would add the core version of Cinema4D to that, especially as you get Bodypaint free with it. You say that you've been using it already, so that may be an advantage.

Modo: Personally, I didn't find it as user-friendly as C4D (or 3DSMax for that matter), but then I couldn't get any of the tutorials for it, so I could have been doing something wrong!

Lightwave I want to try, but can't get a demo, same with XSI. Maya isn't that cheap or user-friendly is it? But you can't argue with the results!

These are just my opinions you understand - I think you've got to try them all and buy the one you get on with best.

Kiwi123: How do you get the slice command to do what you want it to in Modo?

[kiwi123]

Lukem, what do you mean....? Select (or not) what you want to slice, activate slice, click and drag, done.

[Lukem]

All I know is that when I had the demo, I found it very hit and miss as to where the cut would appear. I wish I had had more time to play with it - had I have got to grips with it, I would seriously consider going to Modo.

(Don't mind me - I'm sulking after the C4D R10 upgrade incorporating no new modelling tools to play with!)

[kiwi123]

You probably had the axis set to anything other than automatic.

[kevjon]

I've never used modo but it sounds like it would suit your needs perfectly. No use paying for animation tools if you don't need em.

[charglerode]

Well, I do have to say that Modo looks like an extremely powerful modeller. The UI and controls were a bit wierd for me though. I love a sparse environment where I can pull up menus and switch views from shortcuts, but I couldnt seem to work as smoothly or fast as I normally do. Of course, I attribute this to my lack of experience with Modo.

@Kiwi, Where can I find some good tutorials for Modo on the UI and controls. I dont care about modelling tutorials, once I figure out the UI and controls I can figure the rest out on my own. I want to be able to run through the tools and views without ever clicking on a button. Also, how powerful is the Modo renderer?

Thanks again everybody for your responses, I really appreciate it.

[Big Red 11]

Check out the tutorial section of vertexmonkey.com . You can customize all you want very easily - it's almost fun to find the ideal setup.

Are you a student? You can get a serious discount on modo if you are. I got it for 100 bucks :cool:

[kiwi123]

If you go to the top menu and press layout, you can select for instance the sparse layout, which will be as clean as you can get. You can use and make marking menus as well, press ctrl-space when you are over a viewport. There are several combinations already made for those.

If you download the demo you can also download the manual as pdf or actually a bunch of videos that show perfectly how to make your own layouts, I think its one of the first topics.

You have several navigation modes as well, in your preferences (system/preferences/input/remapping) you can select mouse input presets to work like max, maya, c4d, lightwave, silo or softimage. That should make you feel more at home. Although obviously the tutorials are based around the modo standard mouse layout. I use the maya ones myself.

Another neat trick, I presume you're using 202, move your mouse over one of the tabs over your 3d viewport. For instance the tab that says Model Single, or the one called Model Quad. Hold you mouse over it, press 0 or insert on your numeric keyboard and presto, all other menus are hidden. To revert back, just press the same button in the same area.

[Skyraider3D]

Modo is overhyped, it's just another polymodeller. Nothing special.
*insert evil grin here*

[charglerode]

Well, I'm not a student so I can't get a discount. What do you guys think of some of the cheaper sub-d modellers like Silo or Hexagon? I know 3D World calls Hexagon THE best sub-d modeller around. Only problem is that both are modelling packages only therefore no renderer. Is the price savings worth going with a standalone renderer like YAFRAY or POV-RAY?

@Kiwi, I already downloaded the trial for Modo, but I could never find the manual. I also think I accidently deleted the Modo videos and I cant seem to find them again. Any ideas?

[krazycolin]

Modo may be overhyped ROnnie, however, for someone who doesn't have 5000 to spend on a piece of software, i think Modo's a great choice.. as is XSI... both are WAY cheaper and certainly at least as effective at doing the job as max is and in certain cases, probably even better. look at what Wiek does with it....

[kiwi123]

So, to redo my *deleted* post.

I have Hexagon2, it is nice, but I found it to be quite buggy. Lots of crashes on my machine. Granted I haven't tried the new updates. Bought it for 20 dollars by becoming a daz gold member for 1 month. Tried it for it's painting abilities before modo 201 was out. Haven't touched it since. Personally I do not hold 3d world in high regard, overpriced and not very good (for me).

As for the trial, just download it again, or email luxology, they are very helpful people (when their web form email works)

[kiwi123]

Colin: if it makes people happy to use Max, they should, I won't hold anything against them. It's just another tool. As long as they don't force me to use it.

I think the best advice that anyone can give you is to go for XSI or Modo. I do not make any money by saying that, it is just the best choice with your description. If you want to spend less than 500 dollar (XSI), go for Hexagon or Silo. They are supposedly pretty ok.

[charglerode]

I have already tried contacting Lux 2 weeks ago with no reply. The only thing I dont like about Hex and Silo is the fact that neither come with a renderer. If I try one of these, which renderer would give me the best results?

[denders]

Go to this thread on the Newtek forum and look for the reply by 'Phil'. He has a link to 7.5d. That's the newest demo. Newtek evidently did not have a demo of version 8. I thought I had read something about they were going to have a demo for Lightwave 9, but I didn't find anything on the Lightwave web site. 'Discovery Mode' is the demo mode.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57932

Dave

[via]

Hi Charglerode
here in Germany Maxon is offering the R10 version for 795 Euros, which is not bad considering that it now includes Bodypaint in it's third iteration. The ability to manipulate hdri images is also interesting. Bodypaint is said to be really good now.
I don't know how much it costs in the USA, but I was always under the impression that Cinema offers a lot for a very moderate price.

[charglerode]

Well, I like Cinema 4D very much. The base costs $895, but in order to get good HDR or GI renders I would need the Advanced Render module as well which is an additional $525. This is already beyond the price I can afford to spend.

[Lukem]

How easy is XSI to use? The price is attractive, using mentalray to render sounds attractive, but how user friendly is it?

[kiwi123]

I had a go at XSI a while back, seems to be very different from the usual Maya/Max etc interface, even more weird than Lightwave. But it seems that once you get used to that it's real good.

As for lux not getting back to you, try posting in the forum.

[kevjon]

XSI Foundation is good value and pretty easy to use once you learn the keyboard shortcuts. Two things I didn't like about it is the lack of any kind of symmetry modelling modifier and I have heard that bump mapping in the software is poor. So if you like nice fine panel lines and rivets for aircraft you may be dissapointed.

[charglerode]

I downloaded the XSI Foundation trial and I found myself quickly frustrated with the UI. I like the price, but I would easily pay few hundred more dollars for something with a much better and customizable UI like Modo. I have been watching the videos over at Sabpro and it's amazing how much I can do to that interface. I love pie menus and I would easily model with the perspective view and pie menus exclusively. I'm still looking around for more tutorials, but ultimately it will come down to actual play time I get with Modo. I just wish I could find the damn user guide somewhere.

[kiwi123]

send an email to brad at luxology dot com

[zarroun]

I have to agree. XSI seems to be easy to use, but the UI sure is something. But you can customize it to make it behave like other packages.

Lightwave could also be a solution. It's cheap and handles itself quiet well. It seems to be doing great for industrial modeling and animation. There are certain functions and tools the make it so much easier when you get a crummy cad file. Yet, like any other package, it has it's HURRAYs and it's BOOOOOs.

A very cheap way (it's free) would be POVRay. It's a very old ray tracer, but is still being used. In fact, we have a member here who has created pretty nice pics with it. But it's complicated, and very limited in functionality. If, however, you are comfortable with C++, you can create crazy things that would be hard to reproduce in other programs. And the fact that it's free makes the complications a bit better.

Cinema 4D has been my favorite for a while. It's easy to use, has an extremely good render engine even without Advanced Renderer and can load pretty much any file format. It even reads the vector information from PDF files. But it is a bit on the expensive side, that's true. You get a lot more for your money than most other developers give you, especially the big ones. The free updates actually are updates with many additions and improvements to functionality and workflow (unlike some big developers do). It is, how ever, not my first choice for animation. In fact, I think the animation tools are horrible, and creating a bone rig is a nightmare. But that's my opinion (maybe that's why Polar Express was so bad :p).

modo has become my new obsession, and it lives up to every bit of it's hype. The reason many people probably don't like it is because it has a very simple appearance. Microsoft Word looks complicated compared to modo's UI. But it's an extremely deep program. Luxology finally incorporated functions that we, over the many years, started to take for granted that they are not possible and found cumbersome work-arounds for. For example, we made a little test at work just for fun once and I completely redesigned the UI (and I mean to the point where it didn't look like modo anymore at all) in 27 secs. Don't like the workflow, change it on the fly. Also, it has the fastest render I have seen so far. Don't know how fast XSI or Renderman render though. The modeling tools work in a very comfortable way. Again though, if you already settled for the clumsy tools that other packages offer, you might not like the freedom that you get. And with the animation tools coming up next year probably, you just can't go wrong with modo.

And if you have actually read through my whole post, thank you very much :salute:

[krazycolin]

you're welcome....

[Spinner]

I just wish I could find the damn user guide somewhere.

It should be listed for both licensed and eval version users in the downloads in your account page.
It's only been up for a couple of weeks.
If you cant find it I could email you but its 46,395KB.

[charglerode]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I have been playing with Modo and I'm starting to seriously enjoy it. There are some quirks here and there that I'm not used to, but overall I like it very much. I have been watching the tutorials over at cgbeard from the guy who did some of the release tutorials. Very impressed thus far and I hope to start producing stuff of my own soon.

Does anybody know of some good material tutorials? Modo has a very wierd materials manager.

[Zorin]

Hm, our university offers two different courses, one is based on Maya and the other on Cinema 4D, which one would be the better choice as I started and only have experience with Max?

[Lukem]

As a C4D user, I've been able to translate max tutorials more easily than maya tutorials. Don't know if that helps....

[zarroun]

Having experience in all 3 (Maya, Max, C4D), I'd have to say that I did not really have problems to apply Max or Maya tutorials to C4D. But it always depends on what kind of tutorials you're looking at. In the end, all 3D packages have X, Y and Z axis. It's mainly the tool names, locations and workflow that change. Unless the tutorial is program specific (such as a Maya fluids tutorial), you should be able to take the gained knowledge and apply it where ever you want. Don't get too intimidated by package names.

If you have any C4D specific questions, just let me know.

[kiwi123]

Thanks for the replies everybody. I have been playing with Modo and I'm starting to seriously enjoy it. There are some quirks here and there that I'm not used to, but overall I like it very much. I have been watching the tutorials over at cgbeard from the guy who did some of the release tutorials. Very impressed thus far and I hope to start producing stuff of my own soon.

Does anybody know of some good material tutorials? Modo has a very wierd materials manager.

The very best training materials for modo come with modo, lots of videos and such available with the download materials from the luxology site, including the shader tree.

[Spinner]

Hm, our university offers two different courses, one is based on Maya and the other on Cinema 4D, which one would be the better choice as I started and only have experience with Max?

If you're looking to work with the qualification later to pay off those student loans, I'd go for maya.
It's used more widely in prod houses.

[kiwi123]

Then again, by the time you're done, there is no more Maya.... :S

[Galgot]

Then again, by the time you're done, there is no more Maya.... :S

Hi Kiwi, You mean Autodesk is going to trash Maya ? You have infos bout that ?

[kiwi123]

Wasn't there supposed to be some hybrid coming out ?

[Galgot]

Well, Version 8 just came out with some very few changes, cosmetic like changing the logos... and moving some menus, also a new procedure to create poly primitives, more Max like ect... there are maybe some more indeep changes, but I had no time to see these... For me its just a "look it's now AUTODESK Maya !" version. I'm on Mac, so what interest me is if there gona be a Universal Binary version that will work on Macintels, and that version 8 is not, it still needs Rosetta PowerPC emulation on Macintel... Last news I had was that they are waiting for Leopard MacOSX.5 release, true 64bits system (Tiger OSX.4 is not, dispite what Apple says), to make a real update. Maybe we will have a "Maxya" ...
Anyway I like Maya a lot, the way of navigating through windows... Popup menus all that... But my 3d experience is small, so i'm easily impressed... Moreover coming from Strata 3D :-)

[zarroun]

The hybrid is not going to be released for the next 3 years, according to Autodesk. However, you can already see traces of Autodesk's doing in version 8 of Maya. For example, the days where Maya creates an object at 1 unit smack on the origin are over; now you have to draw out the size and position it back to 0,0,0 yourself. That is very bothersome if you just want to draw out control curves for a bone rig and such since it just adds unnecessary steps to an already tedious job. Just watch, next they'll add that biped thing (hey, look at me. I can use cliparts from the microsoft gallery...). 64bit capability is nice though.

[Galgot]

Hi Zarroun,
Yes that new way of object creation is a bit longer... Now if you want to revert to the original 0,0,0 way of Maya object creation way, just uncheck "interactive creation" in the create menu. A colleague just find it this morning when i was telling im about that stupid new object creation in version 8...:lol:
So it's one more option to check...
sorry if you knew that already.

[kevjon]

Why do you guys want to create all new objects at 0,0,0 ? Far easier to create objects where they need to be in 3D space and already have them orientated where it needs to be.

[Galgot]

Why do you guys want to create all new objects at 0,0,0 ? Far easier to create objects where they need to be in 3D space and already have them orientated where it needs to be.

Habit. I'm a slave of habits...:) It's been done like so in Maya since i use it so... Like Zarroun that new way bother me too. Even if i know i will have to move the object from 0,0,0 pos to where i want it to be latter :lol:

[kevjon]

Once you guys get used it I'm sure you'll find it's good move forward.

[giant551]

please forgive me for my late reply I completely overlooked this thread.

let me put my hat in the ring for XSI :D I have been using it for the past 6 months or so and found it a superb tool. The UI does take a little getting used to but once you start getting used to it you quickly realise how intuative and easy it is to get around. And using the hotkeys you will soon realise what a really fast smooth modeller it is. As for Symmetry XSI does that just different to Max :D you use instance instead:D

The thing which put me off modo was the fact it comes with no animation so i would still have to sort that out and i would have been no better off than i was with rhino.

For the price you just can't beat XSI foundation with a great poly and nurbs tool set, fully intergrated mentalray and a great set of animation tools, great UV mapping its was a clear winner for me and at £360 all in bargain !!

I have found the foundation to give me everything i need for this sort of mechanical style work. I don't do charactor modelling so why spend £2000 on the advanced version ??

If you want any more info on XSI please don't hesitate to get in touch.

cheers

Paul

[Spinner]

I agree with you Giant.
I think the animation side of xsi gets all the attention, so there's little of tutes or discussion of its modelling streangths.