German 88mm FLAK

[Caman0]

hey all

inspired by the sheer looks of this gun, plus the model from ThePhobos, i decided to build my own. This will prolly be a lenghty project, since i dont have much time, but ill work on it, on and off.

progress so far (been concentrating on the right side of the gun mostly. PLs disregard errors or missing parts in the rest of the gun, since im re-doing that part. Started working on the model having bad quality refs and viewport bg's):

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/1.jpg

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/2.jpg

side:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/5.jpg

C&C appreciated as always :)

[krazycolin]

wowsa!!!! i really like it... though your lighting is blasting quite a bit... the modelling is very good...

[freddie]

Grr I hate the 88´s :frown:

Sorry, I have played Company of heroes to much :)

Looks good and detailed so far :)

[Lukem]

Awesome! Not much to say really. The wheels still look a bit polygonal but that's really picky!

[cobra6]

nice going so far!

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

good too see u have started :)

[Caman0]

updates :)

Had a lot of trouble getting the shape rigth, but in the end im satisfied with how the breech came out:

http://caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/8.jpg

http://caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/6.jpg

[krazycolin]

a great job so far.... not sure if you are texturing as you go.. but if you are, the breech block was usually not painted at all...

[Caman0]

Thank you for the comments.

Krazycolin: I'm not planning on texturing this one, i like the modelling part better, and since im doing this one for fun, im not gonna bother UVunwrapping and texturing hundreds if not more objects :)

the other side of the breech:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/9.jpg

[Caman0]

total so far:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total.jpg

[krazycolin]

now that's too bad... cause it's really nice... and it wouldn't take all that much to jump it to the next level....

[Spinner]

I'd like to see it animated, demonstrating all the various functions. ie Elevation, train, loading, etc.
But thats a lot of work too and its quite often difficult enough to just get the model finished with these larger projects. The balance between pleasure and commitment can be hard to find and keep on the hobby side of things, as we all know.
Is it the journey or the destination etc etc. More aimless philosophic waffle......

[Caman0]

some very small updates:

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/10.jpg
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/11.jpg

[Lukem]

Fantastic detailing mate! Is your computer going to be able to cope? (the new computer that is) - looks very poly-heavy.

Keep going!:)

[Caman0]

i use lots of meshsmooth on render, to keep the polies in the working area at a low level :)

[Lukem]

Presumably then meshsmooth is completely different to hypernurbs (very wysiwyg).

Can't wait to see more! Are you building the wheels for it too?

[Caman0]

yep :)

http://caman.nl/pics/3d/famo/2.jpg

[Lukem]

Excellent! Looks like you've got decent blueprints too - nice and detailed.

But I was referring to the 'bogies' attached to the '88 so that it could be towed. I assume you are building those too?

[Caman0]

nope im gonna mount in on the 8 ton famo, its a rare but lethal combination.

bad pic quality, made it with my phonecam, from a book ;)
http://www.caman.nl/zooi/famo_flak.jpg

[krazycolin]

that's gonna be DEADLY!!!!!!...

SO COOL!!!!

[Lukem]

Awesome! Can't wait to see it.

[Caman0]

update:

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/famo/3.jpg

[Skyraider3D]

Pity you don't plan to texture it, but the model is looking awesome!

Welcome to the Header

[cobra6]

lol congrats :)

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Yep, well done mate!

[Caman0]

w00t header! :)

thanx for the input guys! well appreciated! :)

[Caman0]

different angle :)

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/famo/4.jpg

[Spinner]

Friggin' brilliant!
It'll look great on the famo.
WTG

[krazycolin]

If you won't paint this sucker... i humbly offer my services... no fee.

[kiwi123]

The UVs as well ? LOL !

[krazycolin]

uh... uh.... yeah ... sure... why not? it'll only take one!!!!!

[Caman0]

lol ur crazy :)
i havent tried this bodypaint program i keep hearing about, its a proggie that allows me to paint onto the 3d model itself right? instead of the unwrapping and edge-welding/stitching hell? maybe that could offer a way out, cos im really not gonna unwrap all these objects, haha no way!!

i cant really work on the model now, i have soooo much to do still... Expect updates around next week :)

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/famo/5.jpg

[Lukem]

See if you can get a demo from www.maxon.net - it's worth having (in my humble opinion)!

The half-track is looking good mate - keep going!

[eternum]

astonishing .... and well deserved header btw!

[Caman0]

total render. Found some time today, added some stuff and merged the models (to test if the pc could handle it). Normally i will work on them seperately, its easier with the refs and pc-load...

render:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/famo/total.jpg

[Lukem]

Ah! Someone else who likes rivets!

Looks awesome mate! What was the render time?

[Caman0]

Ah! Someone else who likes rivets!

Looks awesome mate! What was the render time?

wasnt bad really, i was amazed. didnt check what it was though.
thought the pc held out fine when the models were merged, so when files wont corrupt, things look bright :) (cept for the time i have to work on it, not nearly enough). today Max was bitchin, corrupted a file. luckily i have autobackup set to every 5 mins, so i didnt loose much. File is resaved now, version 05 already, and looks stable.

can anyone hand me a week of solid 3d time? ;)
thanx for the comments guys! keeps me going

[Skyraider3D]

Looks great indeed!

version 05 alreadyVersion 5 only you mean! I'd get into the habbit of saving incremental backups a bit more frequently. If you have a total PC crash you could lose the file you're working on and all autobackups! If you only have five versions, going back to a previous version would mean a lot of work lost.
My Corsair is at 67, my Mustang at 40 :)

[Caman0]

hmm i see, good point. will do that from now :)

[Danoku]

...and never underestimate the ROI of an offsite or at least off system backup on ocassion (like fire wire drive in the closet).

[cobra6]

Lol my BF109 is at 90 or so

Caman, just RAR the files with 30 together, youll end up with the same size .RAR as 1 max file :)
Best compression gives you a ratio of 8% size or so

Cobra 6

[Archetype]

lol my Gz is at 554 now i think, lessons well learned ;)

includes all the split mesh files for stuff like guns etc wich i imported into my full scene later on

[Lukem]

My Mark IV is at 96 ATM and the KT is at 140-something. I've got a (zipped) copy of both models on a USB memory stick too. Maybe a bit over the top as C4D has only ever crashed a couple of times, but you can't be too careful I think.

[Lashy]

hey, great model, you are inspiring me to do this one.

[ThePhobos]

That's fantastic! I was never too interested in building the trucks that carry them around, but you've definitely taken it to the next level. Excellent modeling!

And trust me, I'm right there with you on the "I'm not going to unwrap ALL of these!" idea. Too many small pieces for me too. lol

Keep those great updates coming!

[Caman0]

small update:

re-did parts of the breech block, to make the smoothing better.
And did one of the boxes on the left side of the gun.

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/breech.jpg

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/box.jpg

[martin_3d]

stunning ...

[WonderWheeler]

Very impressive!

One small crit: the opening for the breech should be a little more conical, although its not very visible from this angle. A little like looking down the business end of a manual pencil sharpener with 3/4 or more cut away. I've been studying the breech carefully for another project. The cut away allows earier loading of the shell, and the extra strength of the solid cast steel breech isn't needed so much at the rear end.

Also, the remote dial indicator system would not have been needed on such a portable gun system, as it would not have been tied into an manually cranked fuse setter would have been used. And are those 8 sided bolts.

Found a possible back door way of modeling an 88, by scanning a paper model. Found a Polish (I believe) web site with a stunning paper model at:
http://forum.model-hobby.pl/viewtopic.php?t=42

An interesting colabarative project by the way, would be a flak tower, with perhaps a berlin photo skyline as the background. Would be an interesting way to get the different specialties, that is weapons, planes, etc into one rendering or model.

Too many ideas too little time...

I found a good book on WWII defensive structures of the 3rd reich believe it or not at a local garage sale some time ago. It also, was Polish based, but VERY thorough. Amazing architectural cut-aways of complexes, pillboxes, "tobruks", flak towers. My only complaint, is that a lot of it was about statistics, and the illustrations almost had to be looked at with a magnifying glass. Was interesting to see how in underground pillboxes they used standard designs, and usually had one or more emergency escape openings built into the concrete walls, billed with a system of removable wood beams and backfilled with sand. Unfortunatly (or fortunately), after all this engineering and design, most would only last minutes against Allied assaults.

sorry if we're too wordy
:D

[Caman0]

small small update, just to let you peeps know, work is still being done on this project.
the box, found at the front end of the gun, underneath the barrel.

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/box_front.jpg

[Big Red 11]

Where did you find the reference for such superb detail?

[WonderWheeler]

Caman0:
The connector below the box is probably the connector for the 108 wire communications cable. This would go to the central command center to control for instance, a 4 gun flak battery, with a device that predicts location of aiming point to hit a high altitude bomber.

Big RED One 1:
The other current thread on 88's mentions a link to a model site you may want to look at, as well as other sources. I wonder if Caman0 and Igitur have access to blueprints or museums somewhere! Some very accurate and detailed work.

[Caman0]

unfortunately i dont have a museum nearby, its just picture-references.
i do have a few detailed blueprints though, same ThePhobos used in his model.

Thank you for the comments! :)

[Big Red 11]

unfortunately i dont have a museum nearby, its just picture-references.
i do have a few detailed blueprints though, same ThePhobos used in his model.

Thank you for the comments! :)

Is it possible that you could send me this reference? Or link me to it if it's online? I'd really appreciate it.

[WonderWheeler]

I finally found and purchased a 3d model (3ds) at TurboSquid. Had searched but never saw it before, although it must have been there for years. The author didn't use the terms 88, 88mm, or Flak to help people find it. Eventually found it by looking at everything marked "WWII".
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/164950

The model there is pretty well detailed, but seems to lack the gear teeth in the elevation mechanism. Also the lock mechanism of the half round locking knee pin is incorrect. The leg could never unlock. Also the scale is unknown, as the model currently measures about 2' tall. Will try comparing to other models to establish true size.

Mechanical design work continues.

[Deetz]

Amazing work! Your attention to detail is magnificent :cool:

Deetz

[Caman0]

the yearly ;) update:

Did some work on the barrel, its nearing completion
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/12.jpg

and made one of the gauge boxes:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/13.jpg

[Panaristi]

Wow:eek: Great level of detail, amazing work.

[Lukem]

Hooray! It's back:D.

Looking superb mate - much left to do?

[Caman0]

Hooray! It's back:D.

Looking superb mate - much left to do?

cheers mate :)

dont even ask me about what is to be done still ;)
loads of small details. you hardly see them, so only small updates.

plus im a lazy bum, and havent done much work this vacation :)

[Lukem]

Well eitherway, I'm looking forward to seeing more - stop being lazy!:D

[Archetype]

i concur..
STOP BEING LAZY and give us more candy!

:)

[Skyraider3D]

Looking rather niiice :)

[Caman0]

i concur..
STOP BEING LAZY and give us more candy!

:)

:D

will do a large render tonight, including the fire handle, which i did this evening.

in the meanwhile...:barrel, two sides (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/barrel.jpg)

[krazycolin]

this is some seriously nice work.... i wish i had the time...

[Caman0]

thanx for all the kind words guys :)

as promised, the big render (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total3.jpg)

'nother one :) (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total4.jpg)

[Lukem]

Excellent!

Looking forward to seeing the supports - next year sometime?:D

[WonderWheeler]

Looks like a Flak 18 barrel on a Flak 36/37 base.

[Caman0]

Excellent!

Looking forward to seeing the supports - next year sometime?:D

this year actually! :D
did some work today, decided to make the supports as well, specially for u Lukem ;)

progress:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total8.jpg

[cobra6]

very VERY nice. Always loved this gun:)

Especially with the large plating up front ^_^

Cobra 6

[Caman0]

cheers mate :)

the shield is almost finished, front part with bolts is done, just needs the hinges and the bars, to attach it to the main frame of the gun...

then putting all the wires on the gun, creating the gear for elevation (wont be visible anymore though, its in the very center of the gun), second part of mechanism for opening the breech after firing, the front part of the main cross-shaped base with all the stuff on there, creating the thingies (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/flak.jpg) on the main rotation cilinder... and thats about it i think... could miss a thing or two though... ;)

another shot (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total7.jpg)

Caman0

[Lukem]

Fantastic mate - and quick work on the cruciform!:D

So, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel now?

[WonderWheeler]

Very good. I see the bolt that holds the legs in place is locked. This cruixiform base is from the Flak 18. Sorry I am so detail oriented, I am not trying to be a problem.

[Deetz]

Outstanding work !

Deetz

[Panaristi]

Excellent work:eek:

[Caman0]

late night update, who needs sleep anyways ;)

updated barrel:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/barrel2.jpg

Front part of the base, not done yet...
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/base_front.jpg

total so far:
http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total9.jpg

[Panaristi]

It comes better and better - Fantastic details:D

[Archetype]

You might want ot "dent" the shield a bit
also try to chamfer the edges a bit leading to the side plating

will look alot better then

[Lukem]

Another nice update mate! I do agree with some of Archetypes suggestions, though don't go overboard on the denting.

[Caman0]

yet another update... last days of vacation time, putting them to good use ;)

to do:
* dents in the main shield
* cables and wires
* the thingies (see few posts back) on the main base cylinder.
* small touch-ups

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total10.jpg

[Deetz]

hrmm, I disagree with denting it. If anything the corners of the armor plate could be damaged and bent slightly. Certainly add nicks and scratches to the paint of the armor. Just my opinion :)

Deetz

[Caman0]

finished modelling!!! :D :D :D only one year in the making (on and off, sometimes for months ;))

last touch-ups/ additions:
* changed the holders bars for the shield
* added the thingies on the main rotation cylinder
* added thing on top of the barrel
* added wiring
* added elevation-scale, quick texture setup
* added breech-unlocking-jiggelathingybob

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total12_low.jpg

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/total13_low.jpg

now onto the next level...
anyone tips on how to tackle this sort of thing? i was thinking materials, and for the big, noticable parts, some textures? im really not into texturing, so any tips on how to set it up would be greatly appreciated. i only textured a model a few times, through uv unwrapping all objects seperately (my panzer IV (http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/panzeriv/texture-test.jpg)) but that was not something i wish to do for this project ;)

i do have bodypaint, but couldnt find video tuts, so never really tried it...

so... anyone :)

[Deetz]

WOW...outstanding work!

Deetz

[Caman0]

big render:

-edit- i see two errors:
* a floating hook on the rear part of the cruciform base (on the left in the pic)
* some mesh error in the seat, near the shield

[Hitori Kyo]

very nice! .. now lets see some textures =D

- Hitori Kyo

[Panaristi]

Fantastic work:eek: waiting for the textures:p

[WonderWheeler]

Some good news and bad news, tanxheaven.com (a link someone posted early in this thread) doesn't seem to be available anywhere except through the "wayback machine".

And the good news, I found a good diagram on the web of the sighting instrument: (although it is in French and uses American army illustrations)

http://maquetland.com/v2/index.php?page=vision&id=437
and more at
http://maquetland.com/v2/index.php?page=vision&id=435

By the way the eyepiece shown on their website should probably be rotated 45 to 90 degrees counter clockwise to be usable by the gunner when he is sitting down.

For direct fire, the gunner would rotate the sight to match the target position in elevation. The sight is tied through a tie rod to the second indicator arm. Another gunner would then crank the gun to match the indicator.

[Lukem]

Excellent Caman0 - great job mate!

For Bodypaint try looking at www.c4dcafe.com. There is a DVD for sale which runs through most of the features, with most of the training devoted to uv unwrapping and painting a Spitfire. It's well worth having:)

[Caman0]

some quick texture tests:

suggestions VERY welcome :)

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/texture_test_1.jpg

http://www.caman.nl/pics/3d/flak/texture_test_2.jpg

[cobra6]

Nice work on the rust I must say:), I think it should be just a tad less harsh, but the effect is nice :)

Outstanding model!

Cobra 6

[Deetz]

The dark yellow version looks really good, the grey version could do with a bit less rust, otherwise very nice so far.

Deetz

[Panaristi]

I like both versions, maybe a combi of both. The rust from the grey version recombine with the dark yellow version.:D

[WonderWheeler]

I have seen a picture of a flak installation, where a nearby bomb blast covered the gun with mud. However, they were typically well taken care of equipment, and not very old. While todays museum articles often have rust, missing parts, and are quite weathered looking, durring the war they were not. They were manned by members of the luftwaffe, and there was a lot of pride in their looks. With the exception of some pretty rough jobs of temporary white paint on the eastern front durring the winter.

Like airplanes, these were high technology instruments of their day. Not the weathered articles of days gone by like old buildings, steam trains, and the like. I like the weathered look popularized by model railroading, but it is not accurate for these particular wartime articles. IMHO

[Lukem]

The rust looks a little too severe on the grey one - I think I prefer the dunklegelb version, but both are looking good mate!