German Flak 88mm cannon

[ThePhobos]

Given that the forums have been reborn, I felt it fitting to re-enter my post here to keep people updated on my modeling progress. Hopefully many people remember this model, and now that I've graduated I hope to be able to update it much more often. I finished the left side of the model now, which is the easier of the two sides. There's also a quick texturing test just so I don't get bored looking at a white model all the time. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Flak_left_side_done.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Flak_left_side_done2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Flak_left_side_texture.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Flak_left_side_texture2.jpg

[Martocticvs]

Ah yes, I remember this from before. Excellent detailing! Looking forward to seeing this one completed - the texture test looks good too!

[Archetype]

hey phobos by any chance are you willing to share your references ?

i've been wanting to do this one for my GZ scene to place some on the dock

[Xizor]

excellent detail, i will be checking up on this one to see the texturing

[Skyraider3D]

Awesome model! But don't forget to fix your smoothing groups as there are still a lot of segmented items there!
As for the camo... hmm...

[cobra6]

I think I found myself a new wallpaper ^_^

Hope you dont mind!

Needs some work on the texture, some damage, and its to gold ^_^

Cobra 6

[BAKMS]

Very KEWL !

[Lukem]

Fantastic modelling!

Where is your 88 based then? I thought most of them were painted grey.

[LegalAssassin]

Looks nice, keep it up!

[ThePhobos]

@Archetype: Of course! Send me a private message with your e-mail and I'll send you a zip file with everything I've got. :)

@Skyraider3D: Yeah, that's one of the downfalls of exporting from Modo to Maya so I can render the model. Modo 201 is due out anytime now so once I get that I'll be able to do some real renders with the original SubD model, which I am very excited about. Trust me that the original model is almost entirely SubD pieces, so it's very very smooth.

@cobra6: Not at all. Thank you!

@Lukem: Many of the reference pics I have show the model as being 100% camoflauged, but others show it as just a flat beige color. I haven't yet figured out how I'm going to texture the final piece. Ideas are always welcome.

Thanks everyone! More to come soon!

[Meshfan]

Wow. Very nice.

*Mans gun and shoots down a coupla of fighters*

[Skyraider3D]

*does split-S and strafes gun, which has become useless against aircraft at low altitude* ;)



ThePhobos, o yea you told me before :) Sorry for repeating myself.
At work I regularly need to deal with outsourced models and one thing I'm allergic to is people not assigning smoothing groups! :D

[Meshfan]

*curses and puts in another belt of ammo*

*misses again and gets killed by skyraider*

I hope to see that Flak cannon in color!

[ThePhobos]

Well, here's what I would consider a major update to the right side. I have gotten most of the parts done, and I even went through some of the stuff on the left side that I missed (small parts). It's so nice to have graduated and to have the time to work on this now!

Another thing to note - this render is from Modo 201, so you can finally see all of the subd work I've been doing but have never been able to show off fully. So you can see now that the things that should be smooth are (and always have been) :D

As always, it's a big render. 1600x1200 and 150k. I like to render large given how much detail I put in. :)
171

[Skyraider3D]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Meshfan]

Omg. Look At That Detail.

[Spinner]

Bloody superb!
There is one teeny weeny pivot point that wants attention.
Its just that the rest is so good it catches my eye.
Down towards the lower right corner.

[ThePhobos]

Thanks guys. I feel much better about these kinds up updates than I did with those tiny ones before. Been really putting in some long hours on this thing (like, up until 3am every night) so it really feels good to get some nice feedback on it. :)

Spinner: Can you point out the piece you're talking about? That bottom right piece was the last one I did, so I wouldn't doubt I didn't mess something up. Maybe take my pic and Photoshop an arrow over top of it pointing to what you mean? I certainly don't want to butcher this thing at this point. hehe

Thanks guys! More to come soon!

[Spinner]

Sorry M8, I dont want to dump on your model. Its too good for that.
Just this little bit caught my eye.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/sulk/88detail.jpg

[ThePhobos]

Holy cow! I never noticed how bad that part looks. That was when I was still learning Modo. Yowza. I do appreciate you pointing that out, especially given how bad it looks. That's really the reason I was posting this on here - for the constructive criticism like this. While it's nice to hear how much you guys enjoy it, I truly enjoy hearing how I can change it. I'll go back and redo that whole section now that I know what I'm doing. Thanks man!

[Spinner]

Glad I helped.
The learning curve is a ....., isnt it. I'm at the stage where I'm chucking everything I did yesterday asI learn more each day. Getting into Max, but I can see myself wanting to check out Modo soon. It seems good.

[krazycolin]

i always loved this cannon.... it amazed me that something deisgned to shoot down aircraft could be so very... adaptable... and rugged... unlike most german designs (to this day) it was amazingly dependable and easy to maintain.... and you have really done a nice job on it... (did you rotate the screws?) :D

[ThePhobos]

krazycolin: Yes I did. lol. It had been bugging me for awhile that I hadn't changed them, so I went through when I neared the end of my modeling and turned them all. As I've been working on various parts I saw other ones that needed turning and I did. Those words rang true in my mind for months now. :)

So, here it is! I FINALLY finished the modeling part! I say that now, but I might go back and make sure all is well in Detail-ville. hehe. I took some time to put in lots of parts that I had somehow missed over, including two large boxes mounted on the front. They're somewhat visible in these pics. Next will be texturing, which you can see the beginning of in this pic. A large set of reference pics I have show the cannon being this exact color, and I really kind of like it so I am thinking of just keeping it that way. I'm not good at texturing, but I'll give it my best shot.

Thank you all again for helping me on this, even if it was just positive encouragement. It obviously worked. But as always, if you see something wrong please tell me. And yes, I did actually redo that part Spinner pointed out. :D
184

[Spinner]

It had such cool tow vehicles too.;)

[krazycolin]

Yeah... those twin wheel sets.... Hey.... ThePhobos... you'd only have to make one... !!!!! COME ON!!!! it would be so cool!!!... if you do that.. maybe i'll make a famos.... now that would be a job... but fun....

[Skyraider3D]

That looks so neat. We need the header system back ASAP :)

[krazycolin]

i took a header... once.... long ago.... i remember it vaguely....

[krazycolin]

and i'm so happy SOMEBODY took my advice about the screws!!!! thanks... i now feel vindicated... (about something anyway!!!)

[deltacharlie]

Dude, sweeet model!! One of my friends and I tried to create a working flak gun like this for a Return to Castle Wolfenstein map, but never finished it...so I have a soft spot for flak guns...awesome modeling; love all those amazing details!!

~DC

[ThePhobos]

Whoever's choice it was to put me in the header, thank you! I've never been in a header before, but it's a great honor for me. Thanks. :)

As I've been working on the textures, I've realized that I wanted to put my model in a little scene. Nothing extravagant, but maybe some sand bags or something. Does anyone have any pics of how this type of cannon was used/camoflauged when it was on the battle field? All of the ones I have are of museum models, so I don't know what it looked like on the field. Anything at this point would help, like boxes that the shells were in or anything like that. I feel like it would really flesh the scene out some.

Thanks again! More pics to come soon.

[Spinner]

Probably not what you're after but its one installation.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/sulk/german88_778.jpg
A US Intel report on the 88 (boy are they impressed!) that has two in site pics.
http://www.lonesentry.com/new88mm/index.html

[ThePhobos]

Thanks Spinner!

Here are some texture tests. I personally have a preference on them and it's the tan with the camo. The other two are the only other kinds of ideas I can come up with. The green camo was in response to some reference pics I had, the tan was as well. What do you guys think? Keep in mind that I don't want to spend too much time on texturing since this is going in my demo reel and I'm just going to apply for modeling positions, so I'm focusing mostly on the modeling itself.

Thanks again for everyone's help! I'm glad to finally be able to call this one done. :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/tancamo.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Texturetest4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/Texturetest3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/lordphobos/greencamo.jpg

[krazycolin]

i like the tan camo as well....

[Skyraider3D]

I'd go with overall desert yellow or field grey. Any sort of camo pattern will just distract from the excellent detail :)

[ThePhobos]

I'd go with overall desert yellow or field grey. Any sort of camo pattern will just distract from the excellent detail :)

That's kind of what I was worried about too, but I felt the tan was just too boring, and grey looked even worse when I tried it. :( I'm thinking though that for my demo reel I'm going to have the cannon spinning and then have it fade from one texturing style to another. Seems to be traditional to do it that way. Go from textured to shaded to wireframe, etc. So I might be able to use the tan camo for that so long as it's not too visible, but I'm not sure yet. Decisions decisions......

[ThePhobos]

Oh, and if anybody happens to be good friends with anyone at Epic Games (the makers of Unreal Tournament) and wants to put in a good word for me, I'd appreciate it. :) I'm dying to work there and having a good word put in would be very helpful. Just thought I'd throw that out there. hehe

[Skyraider3D]

but I felt the tan was just too boringQuite the opposite. I feel this is a typical case of less is more! :)
There's still a lot you can do with a solid colour: weathering! Stains - from dirty fingers and lubricant oil to rainstreaks and mudsplats. Scratches, dents, rust, etc... there's tons of subtle effects you can add.
Here is a completely random piece of armour in a sand kind of colour:
http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Walkaround/Cent1/Centurion%20shell%20ejection%20port.JPG
Note the amount of weathering going on. This is from a museum piece in a so-so condition and perhaps a bit over the top to be realistic for an in-service piece of equipment, but I am sure you get the idea.

[Meshfan]

YAY!!! It's in color!

:D

*drools*

[Spinner]

Found this 88 sited in Italy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/sulk/BP440038.jpg

[Andyf]

Some interesting links in topic:

http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/artillery/germany/flak88/
http://tanxheaven.com/mbo/88mmFlak18/88mmFlak18.htm
http://tanxheaven.com/fedcol/88mmflak36-37/88mmflak36-37.htm
http://tanxheaven.com/mbo/88mmFlak36/88mmFlak36.htm
http://pvo.guns.ru/other/germany/flak88/index.htm

[Skyraider3D]

Here's a fantastic example of how good desert yellow can look with some clever weathering...

http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/tigeriidk_1.html

Boring? I don't think so! :)

[Spinner]

If you do weather it, ala the Tiger, you'd need to pay attention to all the greased, bright steel, moving parts. This can be dificult as we never see an actual fighting example. All we see are out of commision, without the breach etc kept clean by usage.
It'd take a bit of thought to get the functional parts correct but may be worth the effort as it'd be unique.

[jf3000]

Most awesome.

[Spinner]

Found a Pak40 Western Desert implacemnt pic, that might help with implacing it, as you asked for.

[WonderWheeler]

Very impressive model Phobos! A very complicated project, well done.

Too bad you're not able to share the file with others right now. I understand your need to develop a portfolio for future work. And it is hard to prove authorship once its been given away.

As mentioned to you, I have a semi-scale 1/4 scale cannon I'm building and would like to get a scale 3d file some day. If you or someone were to sell one on turbosquid or whatever that would save a few hours drafting some of it myself.
:)

[Caman0]

... If you or someone were to sell one on turbosquid or whatever that would save a few hours drafting some of it myself.
:)


isnt that what it is all about? ;) i wouldnt buy my models, love creating them myself too much :)

just my two cents...

[Lukem]

I agree with you Caman - it's the whole point of it all for me too.

Any chance of an update by the way?:D

[Caman0]

did some work on it, but not really worthy of an update.
im just too busy these days, i work 6 days per week now, so when i get home, i tend to be kind of lazy :)

soon though :)

[WonderWheeler]

Found a Pak40 Western Desert implacemnt pic, that ...

That's a good picture, but it is of a Flak gun and not a Pak 40. The Pak40 is the little two wheel version of the 88 used by the German Army. The picture shows a Flak 18 barrel, and the trunion is from a Flak 18 or a Flak 36/37. If there are two fuse setters it is from a 36/37. Flak guns were typically manned by the Luftwaffe.

Hate to say it, but in the earlier picture of the gun emplacement in the fortified french chateau or whatever, that looks like a naval gun rather than an 88. Notice the curves.

Phobos's model is a mix of parts, as sometimes happened during the war. It uses a Flak 18 barrel, but uses the Flak 36/37 trunion (as there are two fuse setters). The cruixiform base is from a Flak 18 as it has round pads and the stake holes are inboard of the pads. The Flak 18 base was used with the #201 trailer, which had dual tires on the rear, singles on the front, old fashioned streamlined fenders in front, and hand operated winches.

I had an opportunity to look at an unpublished article by a chap named Roy Chow. It explains how to identify the different models, and lists a lot of errors from books on the the 88.

I finally purchased a 3d model by the way, but it is for a 36/37 and the metal contraption I'm building will probably be based on the Flak 18.

[Deetz]

Actually a PAK 40 is 7.5 cm and not 8.8 cm, not really a 2 wheeled version of the 88.

Deetz

[WonderWheeler]

Really!

By the way there are 88's that don't use normal 88 ammo too. One tank uses a round that is electrically fired but otherwise similar, and the 88 used on submarines do not use a normal cartridge.

[Lukem]

The PAK 43/41 was the two wheeled '88.

The '88 used on U-boats was a specially designed naval weapon as far as I know, the C35 Schiffskanone and not related to the Flaks.

[Twitti]

Sorry That's all wrong;)
The only 88mm canon for Antitank fight was the Flak
88 all other are begin with 37mm, 50mm and 75mm on
a 2 Wheel lafette.
the longest 75mm Antitankgun was in the Panzer IV
Tankhunter Version "Guderianente" L70
http://www.panzerlexikon.de/jgdpzivlg.jpg
The Flak 88 was an universal Canon for Antiaicraft
and Groundfight to Antitankfight.
1943 was this the only Waepon to defeat the Russian T34.
The first Tankhunter with the Modifyed Flak 88 was
the long Version of Panzer IV selfpropelled called "Nashorn"
or "Hornisse".
http://www.modellbahnecke.de/bilder/revell/03148.jpg
Here are an intresting Link for Informations
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseitenneu/7,5-cmPak41.htm
Greetings from Twitti

[WonderWheeler]

Sorry That's all wrong;)

If you have any specific corrections please let us know.

By the way, there is a story that a British Prisoner of War in North Africa, complained that it was unethical or unsporting to use Flak cannons against the British tanks. The German, it was said, responded that it was not sporting that some of the British tanks were so thick that only a Flak gun could knock them out!

[WonderWheeler]

Whoever's choice it was to put me in the header, thank you! I've never been in a header before, but it's a great honor for me. Thanks. :)

As I've been working on the textures, I've realized that I wanted to put my model in a little scene. Nothing extravagant, but maybe some sand bags or something. Does anyone have any pics of how this type of cannon was used/camoflauged when it was on the battle field? All of the ones I have are of museum models, so I don't know what it looked like on the field. Anything at this point would help, like boxes that the shells were in or anything like that. I feel like it would really flesh the scene out some.

I have been collecting hundreds of pictures, but don't know how to get them to you, as we have a dial-up connection at home here. A good book was a book on the 88 in combat. A better source of bitmap pictures I've collected were pictures taken by crewmembers in WWII and now coming up as originals on Ebay. As their estates becom available I guess. :-( Maybe we can get you a CD somehow.

The shells were in wicker boxes in groups of 3. The guns when in antiaircraft batteries were usually placed in groups of 4, marked A, B, C or D on the top recuperator. The emplacement would have a wall about 4 feet or so high, around it, sometimes with little areas inset into the outer walls for the ammunition supply. An exit trench out one end, with a dogleg to protect from fire. Outside of wall was sloped earth to protect from shrapnel, with maybe some brush for camoflauge. Sometimes a longish narrow, mostly recessed bunkhouse to one side to hold 8 men. Often with a sod roof and few windows. Made of horizontal boards, tarpaper, small diameter vertical sapling logs inside. "Deadmen" or short burried logs were wired back to the walls to keep them from tipping over from the weight of the earth. A board floor where possible, and a little wood stove of some kind. Duckboards of some kind around gun in some cases.

A group of 8 men and one leader served each gun to keep the many wheels turning and ammunition moving. All luftewaffe personnel, even when used against tanks. Heavy cables connected each gun emplacement to a mechanical predictor or computer that would help estimate altitude and aiming points against aircraft or moving ships. The length of cable on the trailer drum limiting the length of separation. Sometimes a blanket or part of a tarp was put on one of the legs to blunt the impact of someone tripping over it. Muzzle protected by canvas cup when not used, same with panoramic sight on top center of gun.

The light or dial indicators on the right side allowed the two operators that turned altitude or azimuth handwheels to keep on target when fired remotely. A big bell on the left side, often unpainted rang when they were to fire apparently. Or the commander had earphones over his cap to recieve firing orders. The inside and faces of the breech were left unpainted. Sometimes the edge of the opening painted with a white line as an inverted "C" shape. The crewmember that inserted the round had a leather mitten that went almost to the elbow on the right hand only.

The guns were kept well maintained and neat as possible. There would be a pile of shells after an eavning of firing against bombers. The shells not being straight sided, but having a stepped side like a rifle cartridge.

The more sophisticated models of the 88mm flak guns were the 36/37 Flak 88, and your model is actually the Flak 18. Probably because the blueprints most seen are of the 18. To avoid the treaty of Versailles restrictions, they implied the model was from 1918, a bit of a stretch. The 36 and 37 being of 1936 and 1937 and having a number or improvements to the trailer, legs, barrel, and electrical systems. The 36/37 used the same set of wheels on front and rear, the 18 had two wheels in front carriage, far from the center of the gun, the rear had 4 wheels, a little closer to the center of the gun. Not that the trailers were so interesting actually.

By the way I counted about 33 teeth on the elevation gear in one picture, being probably 3 degrees per tooth. I'm going to vote for your gun, as the best of the year, even though it has a couple minor but critical mechanical defects. The leg pin not being locked when the legs are down, and the cam for the breech mechanism being missing. I recently saw a period video (firing on grain silos in Stalingrad suburbs) on UTube of the cam and block in action. Sorry for the extended ramble... :D

[cobra6]

The '88 used on U-boats was a specially designed naval weapon as far as I know, the C35 Schiffskanone and not related to the Flaks.

Correct, different cartridges used, and limited elevation :)

Cobra 6

[LegalAssassin]

Sorry That's all wrong;)
The only 88mm canon for Antitank fight was the Flak
88 all other are begin with 37mm, 50mm and 75mm on
a 2 Wheel lafette.

Are you saying there was no PAK in 88 mm calibre? If so, you are wrong; the PAK 43 and versions mentioned above were made in 88 mm. The PAK 41 and earlier ones were in 75 mm or less.