Me 109 G

[chrisken]

I have seen several fine meshes started using panel by panel construction and decided on a variation of those themes to construct this aircraft. I have constructed the assemblies using several mesh tools to arrive at the overall shape and references including skyraiders main frame profiles for contours. I can now work on detailing each sub assembly of the 109 as they were constructed filling in the details as I go. I evev have the option of several variants of the G model.

[kevjon]

Great way of going about it chrisken. You've built it very much like you would with nurbs. I think this is a better way to go for sub-d modelling rather than trying to make everything part of one mesh (including the detail). Its just too difficult to keep it smooth.

I leave the crits on accuracy to skyraider. He knows the 109 pretty well.

[MrKo]

Very nice and clean looking in general.

[cobra6]

What are those different colors... Are they part of a technique?
Nice 109 ^_^

Cobra 6

[Skyraider3D]

You made a classic mistake though, of making the top of the fuselage too square, right behind the cockpit. Wingtips need to be a bit pointier.
I like the gunports. Nicely done.

[Lukem]

Looks very clean - what software are you using and is it poly by poly or nurbs?

(Apologies if this was said earlier!)

[Baron]

Great to see a "Friedrich"! Nice start!

[cobra6]

You made a classic mistake though, of making the top of the fuselage too square, right behind the cockpit.

Made that one too actually :err:

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

To answer a few of your questions. Firstly I have colored the sections as that is how the mesh is broken down to work on as well as being the main assembly’s of the aircraft. The forward cowls are made from spline patches. The fuselage aft of the firewall using polygon templates from the bulkhead drawings posted by Skyraider, I them morphed polygons between them. The wings started as a ball primitive and were extruded. Propeller blades are rail extrudes and spinner is lathed. The model is made in both Lightwave and Modo mainly because I recently purchased Modo and I am trying to come to grips with it.

[cobra6]

hmmm you wings seem ok to me following the plan though....

you "purchased" or you purchased......Hardly imaginable anyone purchases those programs exept from companies who got the money for it... or is it just me?

Cobra 6

[kiwi123]

Cobra, I'm sure it's not just you. Doesn't mean its right. So, did you steal your pc as well ?

[Skyraider3D]

hmmm you wings seem ok to me following the plan though....Plans aren't always accurate. In this case the righthand wing on the drawing looks more accurate than the left. You can see on the right wingtip you have a slight mismatch, making your tip too round. The wingtips aren't perfectly curved, but a little bit pinched right behind the nav. light:
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW4/Me109-G4-82.jpg
It's a subtle difference, but a characteristic one.

Speaking of character... the windshield (yes here I go again!) doesn't have the right angle. It needs to be a bit steeper. Best match up with a sideview photograph to be sure.

Great to see a "Friedrich"! Nice start!Looks like a Gustav-2 to me.

[Evan]

Nice going so far Chrisken!

[cobra6]

Cobra, I'm sure it's not just you. Doesn't mean its right. So, did you steal your pc as well ?

Im just saying for students like me it is just unaffordable to buy every program we use....Actually its even impossible to buy one....That would take me at least a year per program, put aside updating.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Yeah, but you are using student licences aren't you?

Personally, I did'nt know about CG until I could afford a piece of software to do it (i.e. I was in work - didn't know about it whilst I was in school).

[Evan]

There's also plenty of alternatives out there, either very cheap or free. Look at Blender, in the right hands you can so some pretty cool stuff with it and it's a fairly complete package. There's not a great deal of difference from a high end package to a package like Blender in terms of technique used to produce a model or image...well, at least not from my experience and understanding. Just a thought.

[kiwi123]

Anyway, lets keep this on topic !

[cobra6]

I use 3Dmax in school and I'm used to it. So I use it at home also.
As soon as I graduate and make enough money I will buy my programs, but just now Im not in the situation to :)

Anyway my question still stands about the colours. Are those seperate parts ot coloured pieces of the mesh?

Cobra 6

[Baron]

Looks like a Gustav-2 to me.

Yes you are right! My mistake. Didn't notice the conopy window. In this stage of the mesh the only difference between a Friedrich and an early Gustav.

[chrisken]

Yes cobra I purchased the modo.I actually got it at Modo 103 played with the thirty day trial liked it got it with the free 201 upgrade option.I even own a real copy of Lightwave 8 and Photoshop CS2 . I suppose the fact that I am 55 years old and not a student helps.

[chrisken]

Cobra the mesh is broken into those parts so I can just drag the bit I want into a new file work on it and when I am satisfied drop it into the master and presto my master shape is kept. I find it easy to work with

[cobra6]

Cobra the mesh is broken into those parts so I can just drag the bit I want into a new file work on it and when I am satisfied drop it into the master and presto my master shape is kept. I find it easy to work with

Ah, thanks for the reply :)

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

Just a quick update. Fixed the wing tips ,windshield and back of cockpit. I have started the engine and mounts.

[kevjon]

Nice update, its looking good. Be interested to see some clay renders of your model to see how it looks when rendered.

[chrisken]

Here are clay renders

[kevjon]

Thanks chrisken..I can see things more clearly now and how the blends will look between the various panels of your aircraft. Apart from the engine and cockpit...looks like your on the home stretch with just the detailing to do. Looks like you have a nice surface there for texturing.

[Evan]

Looks really nice chrisken!

[chrisken]

I have increased my reference material (factory drawings and maru machanic) so I have started more detailing on the 109 . I have also moved the modeling over to modo202.

[Skyraider3D]

I have increased my reference material (factory drawings and maru machanic)Don't forget to cross-check with photos as well. http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de is a great site for this... a bit like the airliners.net for the 109 :)

What factory drawings did you get, by the way? I have some already but always keen to learn of more become available.

[chrisken]

Don't forget to cross-check with photos as well. http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de is a great site for this... a bit like the airliners.net for the 109 :)

What factory drawings did you get, by the way? I have some already but always keen to learn of more become available.

I have a copy of the drawings Peter Ewbank has plus the spare parts manual and references the web sites you mentioned. The maru mechanic hardcover for the Bf109 and Fw 190 has a lot of useful stuff

[Skyraider3D]

Yes Maru Mechanics are fantastic. I have the softcover one. Just curious... how many pages does yours have? I always wonder if there's a different in content between them, or just a different presentation. Mine's got 160.


PS. More great 109 references can be found here: http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Buchvertrieb-AH

[chrisken]

Just a small update. I have added flaps and finished the raidators. I have started to detail the wheel wells and the canopy and windshield as well as finishing undercarriage doors.

[giobi@nco]

job very detailed.... compliments!!

Giobi@nco

[chrisken]

Just a small update.Leading edge slats and some canopy detail

[Peter Ewbank]

Chrisken, there's a step where the engine cowl joins the area in front of the cockpit. The engine cowl is essentially made too big so that it can ride up over the top of the firewall. The gap is taken up by a large rubber seal. The Bf 109 F & G nose is adjusted at the engine mount (lowe brace) so that the centre firing canon can be ranged to 400m against trajectory fall-off. Such an arrangement of engine thrust inclined upwards (on some aircraft downwards) also produces some positive aerodynamic features, that I'm not able to describe without a lot more words, so it is not just for ranging the canon. Hope this helps. I think my CD is the only post war publication to have pointed this out. http://stores.ebay.com/Flug-archiv-20

[chrisken]

Hi Peter
The cowls at present only form the general shape I have not done the cowl lips,seals or hinge lines or the cutouts but they will come.I have read the info on cannon adjustment via engine movement and having harmonized guns myself on several aircraft while an armour for 21 years in the RAAF I found it of great intrest.

[Skyraider3D]

That's a very interesting story, and most logical. I never gave it any thought, but indeed all aircraft with engine-mounted cannon (Me 109, D.520, P-39/63) need some system aligning the gun and this would always result in a slightly raised thrust line.

[chrisken]

I have run the 109 into the paint shop.I have decided to paint it as Yellow 14 the mount of Hans-Joachim Marseille . I have several small mods to do because this aircraft is an F4 Trop not a Gustarv.I am just in the process of painting no weathering or bumps yet.

[Skyraider3D]

Nice scheme.
Many desert aircraft had a darker blue for the bottom colour though, namely RLM 78.

[chrisken]

Thanks Skyraider,I checked the reference books and JG27 scheme was RML78 and 79 on the Fredricks. I have adjusted

[kevjon]

Cool...it would be nice to see how it looks with a good lighting setup.

[chrisken]

I have finished the 109F Trop Conversion and the wing rivets.

[cobra6]

Looking good! something about the yellow though...it seems TOO yellow at the moment. Maybe some more red would help.
Are you going to weather it?

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

I am working on weathering the 109 at the moment and I have a scene in mind but had no targets that yellow 14 engaged so I ran up this Hurricane over the weekend. I think with a good paint job and and appropiate smoke and flames it will suffice. About 12hrs work and just over 4000 polys

[Galgot]

:eek: Fast work on that Hurricane. Nice. Anyway , i always prefer Hurri with the trop filter .
Your 109 is perfect shapewise. I may be wrong, but it seems the windscreen is a mix between a F and a G model. But i don't know what version you intend to do in the end, cause Marseille also had a G. His last, he died with it.

[chrisken]

Hi Galot,you are right Marseille did have a G model ,in fact according to my research it was the first G model delivered to JG27 that killed him when engine trouble forced him to bail out striking his body on tail end of the aircraft and falling to his death without opening his parachute. The large majority of his kills were in an F. I have started to dirty up the aircraft and I want to used it in this scene when weathering is finished so please no comments on them all being the same aircraft they won't be in the final render. This is for any helpful comments on composition etc

[Deetz]

Looking good Chrisken!

Deetz

[kevjon]

Looks good Chris. Planes look like a cut and paste job in PS so the perspective does not look right on the other aircraft but once that is all put into a scene and rendered out properly it should look pretty good.

Maybe the aircraft need to be more side on for the motion blurred background to work properly ?

Anyway, I hope you make it to final render.

[chrisken]

Small update. I have painted the aircraft as Yellow 14 ,White 2 of I/JG27 and White 1 of II/JG27 in the schemes they wore operating out of Martuba Libya in 1942

[kevjon]

Shadowing on the aircraft need to be much stronger but its coming along.

With regard to weathering you need to be reasonably heavy handed for it to look about right once rendered.

With whites ...use off whites, and blacks....use dark greys. I find it helps in making it look realistic.

[denders]

Great, it has a pilot! :D

[chrisken]

Have taken advice given to try and improve the textures thanks for all input,

[Galgot]

Nice low ride over the desert :)
it's getting there. Great progress on the textures, i like the riveting details on the cowling. About the compo, maybe it would be nice to bank white 2 just a bit to the right... just an idea.

[chrisken]

A bit more work on the textures and slight change in comp as suggested by Galgot. I have also started to paint the target for next scene with yellow 14 when I get this just right.

[kiwi123]

Hi Chrisken, the thing standing out most in the image of the 109s is the propellors. They are all pointed in the same direction and as far as I am concerned not blurred enough (that is a matter of taste), other than that it is really looky pretty sweet !

[kevjon]

Chris

Its getting better with each post.

You've still got some really weird things happening with your light setup where you now have the surfaces casting good shadows but the underside of the aircraft is as bright as the rest of the plane. Almost like you have a bright light underneath.

Your 109's could really use some specular maps to help bring them to life.

I like hurricane, thats my favorite version....big chin intake, powerful cannons and great desert camo.

[chrisken]

Kiwi and Kev thanks for your comments. I am still playing with the lights. I am trying to have the main lighting coming from upper left behind the aircraft. I do have a light below the aircraft because in a desert environment there is a lot of reflected light. Another problem is that these aircraft would be sandblasted from the harsh operating conditions and so paintwork is dull. I agree about the props and spinners they are not random in their position. I will keep working on it

[chrisken]

Small update ,incorporated suggestions from the forum and did a bit of work on pilots and spinner (holes were to big)

[Deetz]

Model looks really good Chrisken, I was thinking that the whites and yellow (the aircrafts number) on your textures are a bit too saturated and clean looking yet.



Deetz

[kevjon]

The shadows look a lot better Chris and the changes to the prop openings is a big improvement.

Your next challenge now is to work on your glass material as it looks like it has been rendered without any glass.

Pilot could also be improved by 2d painting in photoshop until you get time to model up and texture a better pilot which will prove to be extremely useful for future aircraft renders.

Like Deetz, I think a bit of desaturation here and there could help. It is often easier to do that in photoshop than muck around with your textures and re-render.

[Lukem]

Looking good!

Where you've blurred the propellor blades wouldn't the holes in the spinner also be blurred?

[cobra6]

The composition is nice, and also the lighting is almost correct:) but somehow the planes look very plastic and unreal to me still...

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

I have adjusted as to recommendations ,any further advice welcome.

[cobra6]

I *think* you should put a "redish" light lighting them from beneath, colour of the ground. and a blue on the top for the sky.

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

I think the holes in the spinner could do with a bit more blurring - it's too easy to see their shape at the moment.

I agree with Cobra's comments. Also I think you should start looking at a specular map - take a 'chalk' brush and paint squiggles over the whole air frame with both white and black colours. Sorry if this is akin to 'teaching my grandmother to suck eggs':)

Getting there!:)

[chrisken]

Added specular map and changed the lighting slightly

[Deetz]

Much improved Chrisken, I like the Spec map you've added and the lighting change.

Deetz

[chrisken]

I am happy with this image and I am now composing a second featuring yellow 14 in combat scene

[Lukem]

The spinner looks much better, but where has the specular gone?

[kiwi123]

Chrisken, sorry for being a bit critical here but... the colours look a tad flat now. Adding a bit of reflection with falloff (fresnel) will sort that out quite nicely !

[kevjon]

Its come up very good Chris.
Kiwis suggestion will enhance it more.

[zarroun]

Nice to see this one come to life more and more. Don't stop on it just yet, I'm sure you can push this one further!

[chrisken]

I have tweaked the mesh some more as suggested ,comments welcome

[cobra6]

honest? its getting worse....
It looks very much like shiney plastic now. The previous render was better, alltough it could use a bit of touchup.

Cobra 6

[kevjon]

Chris,

I agree with Cobra, its looking a bit glossy. You probably only need to reduce the amount of gloss in your material to correct.

Keep working on your lighting setup as a lot of the detail is missing from the shadow area of the plane. I know nothing about Modo so unfortunately can't assist with a suggestion on lighting but hopefully you can source a tutorial on how to use GI etc to get a really good effect.

[Lukem]

I'd still like to see a splotchy specular map personally. While it does look too glossy at the moment, I don't think just turning the gloss down is the answer, because you are still going to have those unbroken highlights (I stand to be corrected though:)). As I said earlier, try making a copy of your colour map, make it greyscale, make it something like 50% grey, then on a new layer, take a chalk or spackled brush (fairly large - you are going to be covering the whole airframe) and paint black and white irregular blotches all over the map. Turn down the overall specular height and apply this map to either a specular or specular colour channel (I don't know Modo, so I'm not sure what you have got materials wise) and adjust to suit. In the end, the basic colours should end up a bit more irregular and the highlights should be broken up a bit.

Hope this helps! Like Kevjon, I don't know Modo so I can't be anymore specific or help with the lighting.

[chrisken]

Thanks for the advice guys. I have decided to go back to basics as I have stuffed up the specular map and it is to glossy. I have setup the text book three point lighting on a simple cylinder and created diffused,specular,bump and colour maps. I have also created a rivet brush to simulate flush rivets and am playing with the bump map. I will give your specular advice a try Lukem as well. when I am happy I will transfer my settings and lighting to the mesh.

[kevjon]

Chris

Go to digiartist Hellcat WIP thread. In there he posted a sample of his specular map. It will really help you understand what is required to break up the specular highlights to get rid of that plastic/glossy look.

[chrisken]

I looked at digiartist Hellcat WIPs specular map and picked up some tips from it got rid of the gloss effect.

[cobra6]

indeed better:) try to get some vertical (darker) streaking on the fuselage and nose:
lightgrey=>darkgrey=>lightgrey=>darkgrey

That would add a nice touch!

Cobra 6

[Lukem]

Looks much better!

Don't forget the spinner, air filter, etc...

[kiwi123]

Thing is, at the moment there are 2 lightsources (that I can see), one from the top left and one from the camera direction. That makes it look like a flash gun is going of attached to the camera. That is also what makes it look a little flat in combination with the lack of reflection.

I suggest you use 1 main sun light, 1 skydome (seeing you're in modo, I could help you with an example scene if you want. Turn on global illumination) and reflection from a nice background gradient.

[kiwi123]

here you go.... a quick setup with the camera and light in a similar position, added a bit of fresnel and blurry reflection to the material. Also, I've tweaked the background gradient, turned on global illumination (for which you can tune the intensity in your base shader) and made the sun slightly yellow.

I hope this helps. Anyway, feel free to ask me questions if you have any about this scene.

[chrisken]

Thanks for the comments .I am still playing with digiartist specular example and have to apply more weathering. The work will carry through to this second image on JG27 which shows Marseille and his wingman engaging Hurricanes of the Desert airforce.I have just roughed in positions for aircraft any comments on composition welcome.

[JerryBoucher]

Your Bf109 needs a pitot tube on it's left wing ;)

[zarroun]

Very nice angle. I think this shot has a lot of energy! You could play with the position of the Hurricane on fire a bit. It seems a tad too close to the stab in the composition.

[kiwi123]

A nice angle indeed, be aware of the sun direction though (check the cloud shadow). I agree with Zarroun, furthermore the angle on the two other hurricanes is a bit too similar. The top left hurricane looks perfectly placed there. I guess you could try a simpler composition, leave the top left hurricane and 109 as they are, have the right hurricane be completely opposite to the 109 (as in wings in the same direction as the 109, facing upwards). That would show it at a slightly better angle I think.

[cobra6]

Shouldn't there be a radiotor in the bulge under the cowling? (o0) It's empty now.
I like the composition of that image better though!

Cobra 6

[kiwi123]

Yes there should be, I assumed it wasn't there because you've hidden layers to render quicker.

[chrisken]

Thanks again for input everybody, I just wanted some imput on comp before I started to get down to texture and light and detail. Cobra it will have a raidator and pitot ,its small details like that I appreciate input on.

[Deetz]

I really like this shot, great action and dramatic. With the small changes allready suggested this should be a fine piece when complete!

Deetz

[Lukem]

This should make a great action shot - looking forward to seeing this progress.

[chrisken]

I have set up this test render as per kiwi's instructions in the example he sent me .I turned on global illumination added a skydome and turned off 3d light in the scene . According to the book specular highlites are produced by the 3d lights and as I have none I need to turn up frensel to regain them .This I did but no specular highlites or shadows. HELP?
P.S. Nice light though.

[Lukem]

Very nice lighting. Would having some 'specular only' lights help?

I've seen these specular problems with my own 'work' - the way I got round it was to add a number of omni lights set to specular only. Give it a go mate, I'm sure Modo must have something like that.

[raf]

You have reflections that replace specular highlights now. Although these reflections are from the sky, not sun. At this point scene looks as if sun is blocked by clouds. I don't know anything about modo and this setup, but if it works anything like max you could bring back one light to simulate sun and get some highlights. Either way it looks like very good setup, just depends what kind of scene you want.

This is looking better and better, especially like the desert scheme on the 109.

Edit: Was writing at the same time as Lukem, and wrote practically the same thing. If you want feeling of sun, that light would also need to cast shadows and additional light.

[kiwi123]

Well done ! That looks very nice already, you sure picked that up very quickly.

Why did you turn off the light though ? A single directional light works great as the sun and will give you specular. What you have now would work great in a cloud cover situation though. Just add the directional light back in, give it a slightly warm tint and bob's your uncle.

In real life specular is actually reflection of really bright things (like the sun). So you could always use no specular and just use reflection of a very bright self luminous disc, but hey, that's the long way around.

[kiwi123]

Nice background photo's by the way ! Did you take those yourself ? Shame I'm always stuck with Scotland / the Netherlands / England for my skies, would love to take some good desert / jungle. But that ain't gonna happen, hahahaha.

[JerryBoucher]

One thing that needs to be tweaked in the model is the forward canopy - at the moment it looks like a later G/K type, whereas an F type would be thinner and have other details.

[chrisken]

Nice background photo's by the way ! Did you take those yourself ? Shame I'm always stuck with Scotland / the Netherlands / England for my skies, would love to take some good desert / jungle. But that ain't gonna happen, hahahaha.

I obtained the photos from the USAF website ,they have hundreds freely available for download(must thank Skyraider for pointing me there).They are high definition aircraft shots . That shot was actually of 3 USAF aggressor squadron aircraft over the navada desert original 3000x1970 pixels (see attachment) so load up your clone stamp and surf away. No copyright problems either see below from their disclaimer.

1. Air Force Link is provided as a public service by the Office of the Secretary of Air Force (Public Affairs).

2. Information presented on Air Force Link is considered public information and may be distributed or copied. Use of appropriate byline/photo/image credits is requested.

[chrisken]

One thing that needs to be tweaked in the model is the forward canopy - at the moment it looks like a later G/K type, whereas an F type would be thinner and have other details.

Thats because it is a G Model Jerry and you are correct I have not modified the canopy yet.I built it as a G and at the moment I have modifications of basic airframe into E7,F,G and may even use the base as a K

[JerryBoucher]

Aha - I was wondering what was going on as at the moment the model is a mix of a few different variants.

[cobra6]

nice photoshop work:). Texture needs some tweaking but the last image was also very nice :)

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

I have taken earlier advice from kiwi and set up a test rendered main subject in the new scene I am doing .I am happy with the result of exposure but may need more shadow.I added the directional light as suggested..I have thined down canopy frame as suggested by jerry although after pouring over a stack of images it appears that some F models have with the heavier frame of the G

[JerryBoucher]

AFAIK, no production F models had the G-type frame - that was introduced when the first G series were supposed to have a pressurised cockpit, with a welded rather than riveted structure. Have a looksee at this site:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/index-1024.php

[krazycolin]

shadowing will help a lot with this one... but i would say, that overall, it's starting to look like... way cool....

and a good angle too...

[cobra6]

that light from below is almost perfect ^_^ good job

Cobra 6

[chrisken]

Changed the balance of picture ,think it works better

[Jaho101]

If you reduce how extreme the angles on the planes are it'll look a bit more realistic, but awesome modeling overall.

[kiwi123]

Aye, improved a lot already. The highlight on the nose looks a bit soft for a sunspot though :)

[chrisken]

I am back engineering a copy of the F to a 109E-7 for a render of Marseillie early days in North Africa where he was shot down by Sous-Lieutenant Denis, a Free French pilot with No. 73 Squadron RAF, flying a Hurricane.I cannot find the aircraft number of his E so if anybody can help ? Have more work on cowls and need to do canopy and windscreen and ailerons.

[Zorin]

Could you give the date of that victory? Cause before the 28.4.1941 it would be Yellow 6 and after that Yellow 13.

[chrisken]

Have started to paint the E not Marseillie's Aircraft but another from JG27